By IVES GALARCEP
The 2015 CONCACAF Gold Cup is finally behind us, and it’s a tournament the U.S. Men’s National Team will want to forget, even as its fans continue to search for answers for what went wrong.
Episode 225 of The SBI Show looks back at the tournament, including the U.S. team’s disappointing fourth place finish. We discuss the status of Jurgen Klinsmann, and also discuss the rest of the tournament with Goal.com’s CONCACAF expert, Jon Arnold.
Co-host Garrett Cleverly and I also discuss the latest in MLS, from the Week 21 results, to the signings of Didier Drogba and Shaun Wright-Phillips.
This episode of The SBI Show is brought to you by Soccerloco.com, your source for all your soccer apparel and equipment needs.
Give Episode 225 of The SBI Show a listen after the jump:
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What did you think of the show? Agree with Garrett that Klinsmann has had a clearly better tenure than Bob Bradley? What will be your lasting memory of the 2015 Gold Cup?
Share your thoughts below.
Garret’s claim that Klinsmann is better than Bradley because JK is integrating young players into the squad and Bradley didn’t makes me wonder if he just wasn’t really paying attention to US Soccer before 2010.
USMNT players who got their first cap under Bob Bradley:
Brek Shea
Mixx Diskerud
Eric Lichaj
Tim Chandler
Tim Ream
Sean Johnson
Teal Bunbury
Juan Agudelo
Alejandro Bedoya
Omar Gonzalez
Geoff Cameron
Jose Torres
Dax McCarty
Benny Feilhaber
Jay Demerit
Maurice Edu
Lee Nguyen
Charlie Davies
Eddie Gaven
Herculez Gomez
Sacha Kljestan
Brad Guzan
Michael Parkhurst
Robbie Rogers
Stuart Holden
Luis Robles
Brad Evans
Chris Wondolowski
Jermaine Jones
Clarence Goodsen
While I don’t think that Garrett should use issue as an example of how JK is better, your counter example isn’t very good. Mainly because 10/30 (Brek Shea,Teal Bunbury, Dax McCarty, Jay Demerit,Eddie Gaven, Herculez Gomez, Michael Parkhurst, Robbie Rogers, Stuart Holden, Clarence Goodsen, Luis Robles) are never going to suit up for the USMNT again (still bummed about Stu) and 9/30 (Eric Lichaj, Tim Ream, Sean Johnson, Jose Torres, Benny Feilhaber, Maurice Edu, Lee Nguyen, Charlie Davies (post- accident), Sacha Kljestan) are no/limited impact fringe players. JK does look at a lot of players, more than Bradley and Arena, but times are different. In the past 1 – 1 1/2, he has capped over 80 players. Bradley also capped a lot of those players when they were young, but JK has also capped a lot of young players (arguably more). All in all, they are both good players, but JK tends to look at more non-traditional players for invites (college game, NSL, and a lot more latin players).
What makes you say latin players are non-traditional for the USMNT?
I don’t really understand why “they’ll never be called up again” is a criticism of call-up that happened almost 10 years ago. If we expected the majority of call-ups to turn into 10 year mainstays…that’s a harsh standard. You call up a guy, he plays at a top level for 5-6 years, he gets replaced. That’s how it goes!
|I also will note that guys that you call “no/limited impact” like Feilhaber, Davies, Kljestan, Edu, Herc and Holden all made significant impact on the USMNT in actual FIFA competitions.
I don’t know if JK actually has capped more young players than Bradley. And I definitely don’t know that “non-traditional” callups from the PAC-10 or NASL is something we should praise just because it’s non-traditional. I’d much rather Klinsmann would have given Ethan Finlay the attention he lavished on Miguel Ibarra.
My main point is that it is hard to build an argument that one of those two coaches is definitely better than the other because, like you say, they are different. Every cycle is unique so, to me, If you are indeed going to compare the two I think you have to base it on results achieved during their time in charge. In that case the two are similar, so when Garret says Klinsman is clearly a step up, I disagree.
My second point is that Klinsman’s team has been inconsistent for awhile now and since he has been in charge the style of play he has tried to implement seems lukewarm to me. Full credit to him if it improves, and to be fair he has gotten results with the U.S. I never said that the team has regressed though, I was saying that the performance from the style Jurgen is using still feels tepid and I would have liked to have seen it improve more over the course of his tenure. Transitioning between cycles can be tricky, which is why I would think a continuity built from the previous cycle would help the team progress into the next because young players can be a gamble. There’s no guarantee that the players you mentioned will be the best options come 2018, the young guys may not develop as well as we hope and others may breakout. I say set the bar high and play your best players and make the younger guys force their way into the team. Course that’s just my opinion.
Ted,
Just to clarify, that list of young, core players gives the ones we know about right now.
Obviously between now and whenever the final roster has to be decided, things could change. Hopefully it will.
Furthermore, if someone absolutely must compare BB and JK then it should be only on building a team for the World Cup, 2010 in BB’s case and 2014 in JK’s case.
When you weigh up all the factors then both guys come in about even.
The primary difference is that JK knew he was going to have some kind of future post World Cup while BB never did.
As best as I can determine the USSF wanted to fire him post South Africa and only stayed with him because they couldn’t come to terms with JK on the contract demands. The 2011 Gold Cup loss gave them an easy out. My understanding is they might have fired BB regardless of how that final turned out.
On being the team being inconsistent, this does not bother me because it is what I expect from a new team who has tried out a lot of new faces and schemes in the 18 games since last September. All of those games, except for the Gold Cup, have been friendlies. It amazes me that US fans who should be familiar with the large grain of salt associated with MLB spring training games and NFL preseason games get so lathered over friendlies. I doubt that Spurs fans are overly concerned with their loss to the MLS All Stars.
If you are the sort who thinks the USMNT should always win every game then fine, be upset about the current cluster f++k.
Personally , my only concern about CONCACAF is that the US do well enough to qualify for the World Cup. Otherwise, a US vs any CONCACAF opponent is a practice games to me. I would think a neutral observer wouldn’t bother watching such a game. Too ugly and boring.
In reference to his constant tinkering, I expect JK to try new faces and different schemes.
JK haters like to trot out the idea that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over……… This is ironic because then JK haters want to go back to BB or Arena. I don’t.
Not because those guys weren’t good managers but because what they did was not good enough for me. BB could only extend and improve on the Arena model largely because he basically had the same players and little backing from the USSF. And the fans despised him for being a nepotistic sort, playing Bornstein and Rico and wearing track suits and being mute. Now they hate JK for being a chatterbox.
By the way did you know the USMNT had a winning record, across the board, when Jonny Boy played for them? I guess BB knew something .
In Brazil, JK did the an equally fine job as BB..
Now he is trying to build towards a different sort of team with a different bunch of players. But that will take time and will involve something of a juggling act. If he is lucky, this new team will gel right around the 2018 World Cup.
Garret needs some work on building an argument; friendly results and ability to call in players is a weak base to pull from to say Klinsman is an unquestionable better coach. Bradley may not have gotten as big of scalps from friendlies as Jurgen has but he did fine in that respect. In his tenure Bradley did cast quite a wide web in terms of incorporating players into the pool. Klinsman and Bradley both won the Hex, a Gold Cup, and advanced out of their group in the World Cup. Bradley did win their group at the World Cup but Klinsman had a tougher group to get out of, however Jurgen’s team definitely played like Bradley’s in those games.
For the better part of the year since the 2014 World Cup, and throughout the Gold Cup, the U.S has been uneven in it’s play. That seems like a long time for a coach to have his team be inconsistent. I’m not sure the U.S has really tangibly progressed that much in their style of play in the 4 years Jurgen has been at the helm and I still have my doubts that sacrificing the present is necessarily the best way to prepare for the future.
Oh and can’t forget of course that Bradley did make it to the Confederation Cup final
Ted,
Whatever it is you do for a living, was there someone who preceded you in your job?
Who was better that person or you?
I see little reason to compare the JK era with the Bradley era mostly because in just about every worthwhile category, there are significant differences that render meaningful comparisons pointless.
This is especially true for national teams, which are significantly different from club teams
The current USMNT player pool may or may not be better than what BB or Arena had to work with ,but if so it is irrelevant.
What matters is the talent differential between the USMNT talent pool and their current, and future opponents. In the 2014 World Cup the USMNT was by a large margin, the least accomplished and least talented squad in their Group.
And, as best as I can tell, the gap between the US and the big boys is about the same while the US’ CONCACAF opponents grows stronger all the time.
JK is trying to do something different from BB.
BB took over Arena’s aging team, rebuilt it for 2010 and, in my view, did a fine job in South Africa.
JK took over BB’s team and, in less time, did an equally fine job in Brazil.
But now that 2014 is gone, JK is building a newer, younger team, with a fundamentally different style of play from the BB teams.
This second JK team is in many ways not 4 years old but more like less than a year old.
And the core of this team is getting younger and younger.
Guzan, Yarborough, Hamid, Brooks, Alvarado, Mix, Yedlin, Green, Morales, Shea, Garza, Wood, Morris, AJ, Rubin, Zelalem, Hyndman, Zardes, etc., etc. are going to be the core of the 2018 squad.
Other than Yedlin, Green and Brooks, none of them were significant in Brazil.
That is why it is off the mark to say this team is regressing.
It is just getting started.
Solid episode, fellas…
I’m tired of Bradley. Pre tournament friendlies he shows what we all expect of him. When the tournament come around he’s just not the same. Two instances that it’s happened already. World Cup and now the Gold Cup.
That is your criteria?
Howard was crap in the 2010 World Cup. He wasn’t much better in the 2011 Gold Cup.
He was better in the 2014 World Cup.
Okay he still needs to step up in the tournament. Was I talking about Howard. I said Bradley has teased us twice and let down big time. Even Ives said it.
I mentioned Howard because he is an example of a player who had two garbage tournaments for the US more or less in a row and then redeemed himself big time.
You can make of that whatever you want.
And if you want to drop Mikey, I’m fine with it .
Who is your replacement?
I don’t want to drop him. I just want him to come through in a tournament already.
We have no one that can replace him.
I just want consistency and for him to dominate the midfield.
And I feel like the corner kicks in the whole tournament was awful. Same ideas every game.
If Mikey is as bad as you say then he should be dropped. F++k him.
Who is his replacement?
Klinsmann Out
Get back in the boat!
I think the US’s biggest problem is that there are just some huge holes in the player pool. We no longer have anyone who can create from a wide position. We used to have Dempsey and Donovan. Now we have Zusi and Bedoya. Zardes and Yedlin are fast, but they’re not breaking down a disciplined defense. This lack of creativity forces us to try to get more creativity from central midfield… which we’re also lacking. A guy like Feilhaber might be able to help, but he’s not at his best in a 2 man midfielder, and frankly we don’t have someone mobile enough to cover for him defensively and allow for him to really get forward. Ideally, we’d play a 3 man midfield… but to play a 3 man midfield with 4 in the back, we’re relying on wingers for goals. Maybe we could pull something off with a front line of Zardes/Johansson/Bedoya, but then there’s nowhere to fit Dempsey into the team.
Unless there was a radical change like switching to a 3-5-2, we just have a lot of mismatched pieces.
That being said, I still think a 3-5-2 would be our best bet for success.
The US used to have a game changer when Landon was in his prime.
They don’ t have that anymore. And replacing him and what he brought was always going to be a big culture shock..
Clint is a great scorer and indispensible but he can’t change a game quite like LD used to.
And Mikey is a very good midfielder and captain but again, he’s not an LD. You saw how futile all his gesturing after his goal vs. Jamaica was..
Landon’s set piece service alone won us so many matches. Bradley’s has been so poor.
LD’s set piece service was up and down. Mikey’s used to be excellent , lately not so much. Unless you are Beckham or Roberto Carlos that spot is usually rotated depending on who is hot.
Over the years a number of USMNT players have have the set piece duty , Eddie Lewis being my favorite.
I still think a 4-2-3-1 works best for us. Bradley and Jones/Cameron as DMs. Dempsey and Bedoya as wings. If doing that, we’ll have to have FJ as the LB, because Dempsey will float around and we’ll need someone with range and experience to know how to fill that gap. Up top I still think Altidore, because of his holding and layoff abilities – throwing balls back to Dempsey, Bradley or our CM to shoot. Zardes might be an interesting choice – it’s a simpler position than winger and Zardes probably is mentally ready for it, and as rough as his skills are, they may already be above Altidore’s (who has a pretty heavy first touch). CM is tough. I know I’m the only one thinking this way, but I’d like to see SK have a shot at this role. If not him, then maybe Diskerud. Either can shoot. SK’s first touch is better – he’s more polished but Diskerud gives you better mobility and maybe an extra spark.
3-5-2 would be great and I think Klinsman tried it for a couple games, but our CBs are not good enough to hold in that format. If they were, then we would have a combination of Bedoya/FJ/Yedlin to cover the wings as wingbacks.
We need a replacement for the aging Jones, the new LD (I know he is the best US has produced, but the best nations produce multiple LD quality players EVERY generation).
I don’t think our centerbacks have played anything but a 4 man backline for any period of time and so you really can’t say if they’re good at it until they had at least 5-6 competitive games with that formation. Klinsmann has a bad habit of making players play out of position and expect them to be as good as their natural position. Put a winger/midfielder at a fullback spot to push up into the attack, forgetting that he’s a natural offensive player and may forget his defensive coverage, exposing his CB’s. Put forwards on the wing. Why? are they great crossers? Zardes is a good passer, but not an outstanding crosser. He has good passing abilities in small spaces, big an can outrun even fast defenders in the final third. He is pretty good in the box and in the air, areas where he wont be when he’s a winger.
My point is; we have good players. but Klinsmann consistently puts them out of position and out of formation.
Altidore was never a lone center-forward. In the Eredivisie, his best years, he consistently played up front with another and even 3 forwards. With his speed and strength he was able to round corners and make runs at goals. Verbeeck put him up top only when they were holding a lead or to add another defender. His reputation made defenses put two or even three defenders back with him, and more importantly. kept fullback from making runs forward and leaving the backline exposed or with one-on-ones with Altidore.
But Hull, Sunderland, and now Klinsmann continued to use Altidore the wrong way, as a center forward for route one balls, or a hold up forward facing away from the goal.
I thinks this board sometimes doesn’t realize that players fail more often when they are given bad instructions. formation or positions.
We are not yet a football nation that can produce many players who are versed and knowledgeable in playing several positions and several formations. these normally come when you are in academy, high school, and are taught very early. Things are changing. I look at several USL games recently, and most all have the majority of players under 23 and I see a variety of formations used.
We will get there, but NOT with the current coaching regime who never understood we are not a Euro nation.
About the top USMNT players to keep on the field: Bradley looked like he needs to start resting. Some games he is extremely invisible. (Panama 3rd place game). Or he is just off.
Mikey is not tired. He’s been playing this much for years.
He is not being supported.
Beckerman, Mix, Corona, who were all asked to support Mikey all worked hard but none of them linked up very well with him, forcing him to go it alone.
Who’s the common denominator?
Right on the money GW. MB needs to have players on the field to link up with, who have a soccer IQ and know how to keep the ball moving. And his coach has never understood this concept
It’s not JK’s fault if Beckerman, Mix, Corona, et. al, can’t keep up with Mikey.
It’s called a thin player pool.
It’s a balance. On the one hand,it is up to Mikey to, as best as he can, make the players around him better. Look at a guy like Pirlo and you can see how quickly he made NYFC suddenly look a lot better. Mikey is nowhere near Andrea’s class but that is the idea.
On the other hand , there is only so much any player can do with a limited player pool.
Whether we like it or not; Klinsy is the easy one to blame. Yes, questionable choices on the field, but these players that I also thought would do really well; didn’t…
Keep Klinsy as Tech Dir, but hire a new head coach! My choice: Lowe! (Best friends, yes?)…
You think Joachim Lowe would walk away from Germany to coach the USMNT??? I’m not even going to get involved in this…
I gotta agree with Ives on multiple fronts here…
Garrett is putting wayyyy to much importance on the friendlies. If he places importance on the wins over Holland and Germany, he must place the same importance on the losses to Ireland, Denmark, Colombia, etc.
If the wins over Holland and Germany mean so much, shldn’t Garrett be upset that JK didn’t call players into the Gold Cup like Bobby Wood who performed so well in those friendlies?
Garrett referred to them as “important milestones.” Beating Colombia in 94 WC, Spain in Confeds, 3-0 Argentina in Copa America are milestones, not friendly wins. We’ve had several good friendly wins going back Lalas’s header in a 2-0 win over England in the early 90s.
I think Garrett wld also be surprised to see how many young players Bradley called in during his tenure. All managers do it. This isn’t something Garrett shld assert as a difference between Bradley and JK, and he most certainly shldnt say that Bradley never called in young players. The difference is that Bradley had the common sense to not play these young players in important matches.
My only wish was that Bornstein did not have photos of Bradley with cocaine and strippers bc Bradley’s use of Bornstein was as inexcusable as JK’s omission of Donovan.
To say JK is a step up over Bradley is almost flat out wrong when comparing results let alone considering how flawed JK’s Gold Cup roster was.
Love the podcast, guys.
I agree. Where’s Morris? Williams? I don’t get it. Klinsy’s strengths aren’t his tactics…everyone knows that and so should he. I’m hoping the bond he has with Lowe pays off at some point…
Morris- Out after surgery for a stress fracture
Williams- Out giving his knee time to heal, same one he had surgery on last summer
Wood- Was without a team, so went back to get club situation fixed
Cameron- Stoke asked he be left off the roster and report early
Jones- Hernia surgery
SwerveZ, it would pay to do a little research before posting…
People have to realize that the Confederation Cup is seen as little more than glorified friendlies in UEFA (and to a certain degree CONMEBOL). The bigger nations don’t view it as anything except maybe a run through for environment that they are unfamiliar with (Brazil/South Africa).
I am not saying this out of spite, I spent a third of my life (primarily my youth) outside the US, and frequently return to visit friends and family in France, Brazil and Germany (among other places). Confederation Cup is generally not considered as anything substantial or taken seriously with a few exceptions. Brazil took the last one SOMEWHAT seriously because they felt their team was weak for a world cup they were hosting and they were looking for something to feel positive about.
We should take it seriously, just as we should take our friendlies with bigger teams more seriously. I could care less what happens with a friendly with El Salvador, but I really care about friendlies with Mexico or Argentina or Spain or France etc.
The Confederation Cup was invented so FIFA could give the World Cup Hosts an actual tournament, to work out the kinks in organization, a year before the WC. But teams discovered it had an actual benefit of allowing them, and only them, to train and play in the WC stadiums, a big benefit. It also gave teams a chance to set up their future WC facilities a year in advance.
FIFA made the Confederation Cup important for ALL teams, Why? They gave the CC a multiplier of 3 for FIFA ranking points. Winning several games at the CC and you, if you were ranked high enough, could gain enough points to get a seed, where previously,unless you were a Euro team, could not play enough friendlies to gain enough points to make big enough jumps.
And while people and fans, some media and some clueless coaches and federations, do not think the CC is relevant, I assure you that many SA, Euro, and I hope Concacaf team managers will use a good CC to game the FIFA ranking system.
And I feel one of the clueless coaches may be our own, when, after beating Holland and Germany in meaningless friendlies, wonders why our rankings fell.When other, less talented teams saw theirs rise as they knew how to game the system.CONMEBOL and UEFA are laughing because they schedules a majority of their games for their federation
BEFORE FIFA devalued ranking points earned at the WC.
So while Klinsmann and many others are patting themselves on the back for getting to the knock out stages in the WC, many other nations in Europe or SA, who did less, are preparing for the next one by accruing more FIFA points than the US, because they understand nd are not clueless
This game of football is not only won on the field but by decision you make before the game. decision you make when scheduling the game, and getting to play the right game at the right time.
Let’s never call back Jozy/Lazy Altidore to USMNT camp. He sucks totally. Aron Johannsson is a much better choice!
Ok…let’s get this straight, neither one of these guys is a giant killer, but A-Jo did not exactly cover himself in glory this tournament. He really did not look that good as well. Jozy is coming back from injury and should not have be there. Another thing, it’s not like A-Jo is some young buck replacing an aging Jozy. He’s 24 and Jozy is 25 (almost exactly a year aprt to the day). They are both entering their peak years. Secondly, when they were on the same team, a very good coach, started Jozy above A-Jo and only played A-Jo in a support starter role (if at all).
If anything, give Zardes a run at center forward not at wing. A-Jo is very unconvincing.
I strongly disagree that klinsman has more talent than Bradley. Here are the world class players Bradley had in his pool In their prime Altidore Holden Davies Onyewu Bocanegra Bradley Dempsey Howard. Here are the world class players klinsmam had at the gold cup, an aging Dempsey and Bradley with NO world class players in the pipeline
Difference being that we are now learning a system where we can actually keep possession and attack instead of that BS concacaf style counterattack that Bradley stuck with.
Until games actually matter then we play just like Bob did.
Ha, it’s so true.
“Learning a system”?!?! That’s a joke, right. It’s hard to read sarcasm so I want to be sure. Because there’s one thing that’s a hallmark of Klinsmann’s tenure it’s the constantly changing roster selections, formations, and player positions.
And a quick look at the stats from pretty much every single meaningful game will show you that the US is consistently conceding more possession, shots, crosses, chances, corners, etc. Seriously, name the last game that mattered (other than Cuba) where the US was the proactive team dictating the game and outplaying their opponent. Please do that. Please.
Don’t be mistaken, I love the USMNT, but Altidore, Davies, Onyewu, and Bocanegra were never “world class”. No American has won the champion’s league, let alone a first division trophy! Those teams are filled top to bottom with ‘world class’ players.
Jovan Kirovski, 1997 Borussia Dortmund,UEFA Champions League Winner
DeMarcus Beasley,PSV, 2004,2006.2007 Eredivisie Champions
The US has had several players considered by journalist, coaches and players around the globe as “World-Class”
Kirovski was a very little used sub on that team. They won the Champions League that year but left Kirovski out of the squad that won the final.
DMB was used by Hiddink as a replacement for Arjen Robben and did very well at PSV . They were arguably his best years but calling him “world class” at that time would have been extreme hyperbole.
Neither one of the players you mentioned is remotely close to world class. LD is the only close, but he still isn’t. Although, many thought he had that potential at 20/21.
That’s a pretty dubious list of who was and wasn’t a “world class player”. Here’s some knee-jerk thoughts.
Dempsey is playing at or near his peak at 32, but yeah he’s getting old. Bradley is 27 and in no way past his peak. Altidore was 21 and sitting on the bench in Hull in 2010 and I’d say he’s a better (but often injured, so don’t over-train him!) player in 2014-2015 at 25. Bedoya has accomplished more than Charlie Davies did in France. Same could probably be said for Aaron Johanson. Fabian Johnson is somehow not on your list despite starting with a Champions League Bundesliga team. Oddly you didn’t include Donovan as one of the best players available to both coaches, which makes me question your talent assessment. Omar Gonzalez/Besler could give Oneywu/Bocanegra a challenge but JK refuses to have a regular starting pair and instead throws random mixes of 22 year olds in at CB.
Even if the best 2-3 players that we build our system around aren’t as good now as they were in, say 2002, there is no way anyone can suggest that we don’t have WAY better depth and overall talent.
thank you for saving me from saying the same thing,
Holden, and Oneywu were always in and out due to injury anyway
Jermaine Jones too.
Hmmmmmmmm,
“no way anyone can suggest that we don’t have WAY better depth and overall talent”
Let’s say you are right. What difference does that make ? So what?
It doesn’t matter how the talent on a 2015 US team compares with the talent on a 2002 US team. JK’s team is not going to play against the 2002 team anytime soon.
What matters is how does the talent on a 2015 US team compare to the talent on a 2015 Jamaica, Mexico ,Belgium or Ghana, etc.
Or maybe you think those and other countries have not improved their talent since 2002?
The US squad in the 2014 World Cup was, by a very large margin, the least accomplished and least talented in their Group in Brazil.
That is the real issue.
For example in the 2005 Gold Cup, Jamaica had 4 players in MLS, 4 players in England and the remaining 15 in Jamaican clubs.
In the 2015 Gold Cup, Jamaica had 8 players in MLS ,1 in the USL,1 in the NASL, 2 in Sweden, 9 in England and 2 in Jamaican clubs.
So ten years later Jamaica has the majority of its players playing at a reasonably higher level and the results have followed.
THANK YOU!
The other teams in CONCACAF have gotten significantly better. That is the case in world soccer/football.
Here’s the thing. We’re talking Klinsmann v Bradley right after the biggest letdown in Klinsmann US coaching career. If he beats Mexico in September all will be forgotten.
I agree with Ives in that they sorely missed Jones. There’s no doubt about that.
I’m a Klinsmann guy, but Garret what are you talking about?
Martha you make a good point. This pool is weak.