What will Wilman do now?
That is the big question this week after the revelation on Saturday that Chicago Fire defender Wilman Conde wants the Chicago Fire to trade him to the New York Red Bulls. Chicago has already spoken, with president John Guppy making the very clear proclamation that the Fire won’t be making any deal for Conde that isn’t for what Chicago considers fair value.
What are you prepared to do? That question which Sean Connery stated so forcefully in The Untouchables is aimed right at Conde, who had to know that simply going to the media with his desire to leave the Fire for the Red Bulls wasn’t going to make Chicago trade him.
Is Conde really ready to hold out, or worse yet, stick around and give less than his full effort?
Conde has been a real professional since arriving from Colombia so it is tough to imagine him becoming a problem in the locker room, but it is clear that he gave playing for Chicago a shot and hasn’t changed his mind about wanting to leave. He has been training camp with new Fire head coach Denis Hamlett and hasn’t felt compelled to stay.
Working against Conde is the fact that he couldn’t have asked for a tougher trade to be made. Aside from the obvious concerns about trading an All-Star caliber defender to an conference rival, you already have animosity between the clubs following Juan Carlos Osorio’s departure from Chicago to the Red Bulls.
I can’t help but wonder if that animosity will make a deal that much tougher to pull off. It is no secret that Chicago owner Andrew Hauptman is still upset about Osorio’s departure (upset enough to continue pressing the league into investigation tampering charges against the Red Bulls even AFTER Chicago and the Red Bulls agreed to compensation for Osorio.) It isn’t far-fetched to think that Hauptman has already delivered an "over my dead body" ultimatum about Conde going to New York.
So why does Conde feel so disenchanted about being in Chicago? It isn’t just about his desire to play for Osorio, but also about the fact that he turned down a much more lucrative transfer move to Argentina in order to reunite with Osorio in Chicago. It is safe to say that Conde would have never worn a Fire jersey if not for Osorio.
That doesn’t matter to Chicago now. The Fire paid a $300,000 transfer fee for Conde and the 10 regular season and playoff games he played last season isn’t close to providing a complete return on that investment.
Just what could the Red Bulls offer Chicago to make a trade worthwhile? A package including Dema Kovalenko, a first round pick and cash in the $200K to $300K range is probably as high as the Red Bulls would be willing to go, though Osorio’s desire for a player exactly like Conde could lead him to include an established defender like Carlos Mendes or Jeff Parke.
Would that package be fair value for Conde? You can argue that it is, but what can’t be argued is that Chicago would be silly to ignore such an offer, particularly if Conde stands firm on his request and winds up holding out. The Fire will stand pat, hoping that Conde can be reasoned with and sold on staying in Chicago, but if Conde hasn’t been convinced by now you wonder if he ever will be.
What do you think of the Conde situation? I want to hear from readers who ARE NOT Chicago Fire or Red Bulls fans (yes, Fire and Red Bulls fans can add their two cents assuming they have anything left to say after the weekend’s thread on this story). Do you think Chicago should grant Conde’s wish? Do you think Chicago should ignore it? Share your thoughts below.
Osorio is too shrewd to say anything publicly. But did he talk to Conde privately?
Unless there was tampering on Osorio’s part, would Conde have penned such a love letter to Osorio? In other words, I don’t see how Conde would have stuck his neck out like this unless he knew that Osorio reciprocated his feelings and would do what he could to make their reunion hopes into reality.
It’s like an Afterschool Special. Does Osorio like Conde or does he “like like” him?
I’m not a Fire nor Red Bull NY fan, so I think I can be one person who agrees with Ives about what package Red Bull will offer and what positiong the Fire are in.
Frankly I think a Parke/Dema/cash trade for Conde makes sense for both sides.
The Fire replace Conde with Parke, get Dema to help the back of the midfield and maybe a little money.
Red Bull gets a player that the coach has already shown much interest in. Though he won’t say it, Osorio probably wants Conde as bad as Conde wants Osorio.
The Fire holding out for more could be disastrous to their season — they need to let their anger go and get a deal that helps them on the field and in the pocketbook.
And Red Bull shouldn’t low-ball and offer just Dema and cash. The Fire have to have a replacement for Conde in the back to make it work.
Ives,
Do you think there is another possiblity that the fire hold him to play until the next transfer period where they could take cash from RBNY and turn it into an international replacement?
Bryant’s situation does have to do with it. A malcontent looking to push for a trade. Sometimes the situation ends up in a trade (Kidd) and sometimes they don’t (Kobe). That’s the point…the Fire don’t HAVE to trade him if they don’t deem the trade offer sufficient. That’s what I’m saying.
Guillermo, I think it’s safe to say that Juan Carlos Osorio won’t be commenting about this situation because speaking about another team’s player and the chances of that player joining your team is tampering. I know Alexi Lalas didn’t exactly get punished when he made comments regarding Freddy Adu and the MetroStars but I think it’s safe to say the league would have something to say about Osorio making public statements about Conde.
Guillermo, I think it’s safe to say that Juan Carlos Osorio won’t be commenting about this situation because speaking about another team’s player and the chances of that player joining your team is tampering. I know Alexi Lalas didn’t exactly get punished when he made comments regarding Freddy Adu and the MetroStars but I think it’s safe to say the league would have something to say about Osorio making public statements about Conde.
Ives:
Is a deal for Richards off the table in your opinion. From what I gather, Osorio would like to have Conde and his ability to create offensive opportunities from the back while Chicago is looking for a solid, true right midfielder/winger.
I’m not happy about the Conde news, but I can’t help but think that a conde/Richards trade would equally hurt and benefit each team.
One side involved with this entire scenario has been very quiet.
Ives, has Osorio been approached to comment about Conde? Would NYRB entertain a trade? Has Osorio had any contact with Conde (in December or recently)?
The Fire should not be in any hurry to make a deal. Holding out for the best possible deal is the best course of action in my opinion. If a deal cannot be reached, Conde will have to man up and honor the contract that he signed. If he doesn’t want to be in Chicago he should really be more pissed at Osorio for leaving him more than anything else.
Kobe Bryant has nothing to do with this situation. Neither does Dimitar Berbatov – who, for the record, has never actually said anything but that he wants to stay with Spurs. Agents say the darndest things.
Ives is right – Kovalenko, Parke/Mendes, and cash should be a no-brainer for Chicago. I don’t even see any reason to offer that much. I’d say, you can have Stammler, Parke, and the $300k you paid for Conde, or you can keep that malcontent on your team. Take it or leave it.
Remember, the people running the Fire are trying to do what’s best for the team. They’re not (rightfully) hurt and bitter Fire fans.
How is it that no matter how much crap LA does nobody bitches about them? Its always going to be NY stole this coach and tampered here this season. LA is getting a National team and people hear are complaining about how NY stole a coach. Osorio didn’t take the Chicago deal as his first option. He was always up front about wanting to come to NY and when he told you what he would do, the Chicago fans are shocked.
I feel bad that Chicago fans are going through this. As a NY fan, I wouldn’t like to have these situations happening. But you know what who cares, ’cause I bet if the shoe was on the other foot you would they be laughing. And stating that we are making to much of the situation.
To people saying he must move, why? Didn’t Berbatov say he wanted to move from Spurs? Did he nope. They can keep him and expect him to full fill his contract. If he’s not happy its up to the captain and coach to mitigate the locker room affect, but i would have to imagine he would not play poorly on purpose and risk his future contracts.
Just had an Idea . . .
Trade him for Claudia “Captain America” Reyna. Then they will have two thirds of the
North America has beens Super Force.
Does Canada have anyone to offer to complete this trio? ;D
Willman will-move. You just can’t keep a player like this who clearly wants to play elsewhere.
The first thing to establish is how much of the $300,000 transfer fee was paid by Chicago and how much by MLS.If we paid most -if not all, then thats just the starting point of any negotiations.I dont think 7 games into a contract warrants a reduction in transfer price, if anything I would think it increases the transfer value.If Chicago paid the full price for his transfer then it is us-not osorio-Not MLS-and not RBNY-who took the risk of signing conde.He was an unproven commodity in MLS-Chicago took the financial risk-if others in MLS want him they need to pay the piper.Conde could have been a failure-but the Chicago Front office took a financial risk in signing him-Osorio did not.
My attitude is if NY is interested they need to first compensate Chicago on the transfer value with a slight markup.Only then can trade negotiations begin-and only then will players like Dane Richards seem like a fair trade.If NY doesnt want to pay at least $350,000 then no deal.Plain and simple Cash first then talk trade.
CD wrote:
If I am Chicago I make it publicly known what price they are willing to give him up for. Make the price ambitious and put the pressure on Osorio and the Red Bulls to make a move or make it look like they didn’t think he was worth it.
Posted by: CD | February 18, 2008 at 11:23 AM
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This seems like a really good idea. In this way Chicago would shift the onus to make a deal to New York.
Given the coverage in the press, I can’t help but feel that this situation is being orchestrated pretty carefully.
At the very least, considering Chicago’s position for a moment, I’d expect the Fire to wait until the next international transfer window to make a deal, seeing as Conde has waited until after the close of the most recent transfer period to bring this out in the open. That would, at least, give Chicago the option of dealing Conde overseas – to Argentina, for instance – which would give the team a whole lot more leverage in any trade scenario.
In any case, this is a pretty interesting contract situation.
When I hear athletes talking about holding out, or wanting to be traded I wish more owners would remember the Terrell Owens and Philadelphia Eagles example. Or, if he wants to P1$$ and moan then Conde can follow the example of our favorite (cough) Red Bull Amado Guevara and quit. Personally, I think he should honor his contract with a smile on his face. But that assumes he knows what honor is.
Guys, Richards for Conde is NEVER going to happen. Why? Richards doesn’t want to leave. Chicago is pretty much fucked here. If you hold on to the player, the organization looks bad, especially if NY offered 2 players and 300k. Osorio brought Conde to Chicago, not Guppy. It’s important to have more players like Conde in the league (PLAYING), if Chicago basically had to pay his wage for him helping them into the playoffs, and they get two players in return, I don’t really think you can complain that much.
Welcome to international soccer players my friends. This isn’t your 1999 MLS anymore. Soccer players do these things, and it’s counterproductive to punish him for his desire to reunite with Osorio, it’s just not good business.
“Conde has been a real professional since arriving from Colombia so it is tough to imagine him becoming a problem in the locker room…”
Yeah, I’m real impressed that he managed to be professional for 10 games & the playoffs. What a guy. What he’s being now is unprofessional, so I can definitely see him being an issue in the locker room.
Anyway, a lot of interesting thoughts and opinions on the subject. Very intriguing, and frankly, good for the MLS…in terms of interest generated. Bad for us Fire fans though. Many good points so far, and really you can make an argument for trading him to get rid of a disgruntled player or holding on to him to set a precedent as a tough team that won’t be held hostage by silly player demands. I think it’ll simply come down to NY having to make a very good offer to the Fire; I don’t see the Fire trading him to NY under the current circumstances unless it’s a really really really good offer. Remember, Kobe made a ridiculous scene this summer in LA, LA knew that they had to get equal value back and couldn’t (and there’s no way they would have traded him w/in their conference), so they held on to him. That turned out just fine for them. (And let me point out that I know Conde isn’t on Kobe’s skill level, but he also doesn’t bring the same baggage that Kobe does) So there is a history of GM’s not being pushed around, even by the biggest of stars.
I would cut him and send him back to colombia for whining. No place for this drama
And Yanqui, I have heard from multiple sources that Conde turned down a considerably bigger offer from an Argentine club to move to MLS and play for Osorio and the Fire.
Posted by: Ives | February 18, 2008 at 11:22 AM
thanks Ives. do you know what club that was? and were they planning to pay him in that “trucho” (fake) cash that circulates in Buenos Aires? Just kidding, but it wouldn’t be the first salary dispute in the history of the Argentine league …
It seems to me that Osorio is “stoking” the “FIRE” of a hot rivalry!
Me Likey! Me Likey A Lot!
As a RBNY fan I would love to see him come to play here. That being said I am tired of players going to the media to express their feelings. If he wants out I think he should be the one who pays the $300k transfer fee back to the Fire. He was the one who signed the contract and I am pretty sure it said nothing about I am signing this to play for JCO. I think the deal should only go through if RBNY offers the right deal to the Fire.
Best defender in MLS? That’s news to me.
Is there anything more fun than hearing Chicago fans whine & moan?
Posted by: Smith | February 18, 2008 at 11:32 AM
Yes, being able to hear 10 travelling Fire fans drown out all 200 Metro fans during the 03 US Open cup final at Giants Stadium
😉
The ultimate question is who does NY have on their roster of equal (or close to) value to Conde. I’m not saying just salary and transfer fee monetary value, but who from RB could put on a Fire shirt and have an immediate impact? Lets look past the fact that Conde’s departure would mean a semi-gaping hole in the Fire defense (one that could be plugged by not filled). There are three such players that could fill a need for the Fire right now.
Despite a psuedo glut of forwards, both Angel and Altidore would fill a need for Chicago as they lack a true premium striker. But neither Angel nor Altidore are leaving NY, not a chance. The Fire have been without a true right sided midfielder of sufficient caliber since Evan Whitfield departed so many years ago. This is where the Fire should be looking to find value, and they could find that value in Dane Richards. However, Osorio has stated Richards is in his plan for the coming season.
Players mentioned thus far, including Kovalenko, Van den Bergh, even Parkes really do not fill a need for the Fire, to say nothing of the fact that two of the three are overpaid and NY has been looking to dump them for some time.
There appears to be no clear cut deal to be made between the two organizations. In the end, Conde is either going to be a professional and play out his contract with the Fire or he is going to be immature and sulk, possibly resulting in the Fire sending him to a club other than NYRB.
1) I want to say that in reality this player was brought in by Osorio.
2) with the correct package their should be a trade. fire fans wanting Angel or Jozy is just ignorant.
3) fire staff should take into consideration the team and not just one player. that player couldn’t end up messing up the team in general.
would all this trouble be up if it was fire and real salt lake? don’t think so.
A player wants to leave. You either keep an unhappy player, or trade him/sell him for as much as you can get.
This isn’t going to win an Oscar for best original screenplay. It happens all the time.
So all you Fire fans (and management) out there who are angry and feel like your team is getting screwed, ask yourselves this: What’s the Fire’s best case scenario for this saga to end?
Keep these points in mind:
1. You’re not getting Jozy Altidore, Juan Pablo Angel or Dane Richards. You’re just not. You can make any argument as to how good Conde is, or may be, but that doesn’t matter, as NYRB will not trade those three players.
2. The best you’ll get is Dema and draft picks, plus cash (is that allowed in internal MLS transfers?) or allocation money.
3. Sulking or no, it’s not in Conde’s best interest to tank the season. He has to preserve his own value for future transfers. You might get 85% Conde instead of 100% Conde.
So the Fire management has this choice to make: take Dema and cash, or 85% Conde.
My advice to the Fire management would be to put aside the pride, and pick the choice that they think will most benefit them.
EMR, I’m sure there is a market for Conde internationally but Conde needs to approve a transfer and I’m not sure where he would be willing to go.
James, you need to tone down your rhetoric. The package I mentioned is what I THINK the Red Bulls would offer. Nowhere did I say Chicago should take that offer.
Now, if I were Chicago, I would take a package of Kovalenko (at a reduced salary), Parke/Mendes and cash in a heartbeat, but that’s just me. I’m not saying the Fire should do that, or that they would be crazy to turn that down. I simply suggested those trades as the limit of what the Red Bulls would give up.
Can Conde buyout his contract and/or pay his transfer fee if he’s that serious? Isn’t that what EJ did in order to leave KC/MLS and sign with Fulham?
Where is Doug “By the power vested in me” Logan, when you need him? LOL
Ives – You mentioned the added info about Conde being further disenchanted because of a more lucrative transfer offer from Argentina. Doesn’t this show that a)there is an international market for Conde and b)that he is willing to play for a manager other than Osorio? This would make me think that the Fire have a few more options, especially an international transfer (understanding not many windows are open now and they may be to wait until the summer).
People keep bringing up the possibility of Conde holding out. This doesnt seem to be something that happens in soccer and in fact I seem to remember during the whole John Obi Mikel saga that when he stopped showing up in Norway that the team moved to have him banned him from all FIFA sanctioned competitions. I’m not sure if this was through Norwegian law, UEFA rules, or FIFA rules. Also I seem to recall something about his contract ceasing to run(i.e. he was making no progress towards becoming a free agent). Once again I don’t remember whose rules/laws were applying to this. These bring up the question of what are the ramifications to Conde’s career of taking such a hardline.
Ives, normally you are an excellent writer, but your idea of a trade offer is stupidest thing you’ve ever written. You honestly believe NJ giving us some crappy players that you guys don’t even want and some cash for the best defender in MLS is fair value? Put down the bong, seriously. Anyone who thinks anything else than Richards and something else would suffice is a complete moron.
Is there anything more fun than hearing Chicago fans whine & moan?
Coming from Columbus, I think Chicago should hold onto Conde and let him rot. Considering how much better Conde made Chicago at the end of the season last year. I would rather him sit the bench pissed off then start for Chicago or New York.
I couldn’t help it:
Chicago should offer the Red Bulls Conde for Osorio. That would be funny.
If I am Chicago I make it publicly known what price they are willing to give him up for. Make the price ambitious and put the pressure on Osorio and the Red Bulls to make a move or make it look like they didn’t think he was worth it.
Andrew, I’m pretty sure the Red Bulls would be willing to include money in the deal. I’m not sure money will be what gets the deal done though.
And Yanqui, I have heard from multiple sources that Conde turned down a considerably bigger offer from an Argentine club to move to MLS and play for Osorio and the Fire.
This is a tough one. I think it really has implications into the league ownership structure overall – not just the Chicago vs NY rivalry.
One of the challenges facing the league right now is how they balance the desire for foreign internationals to come play vs the desire to increase the talent pool of the league. Frequently, these internationals want to play in a specific city. A single ownership group limits that capability. How much did the city of Columbus factor into Scholetto’s uncertainty to come back as much as anything? On the other hand, the league needs to establish more power up front to make its expectations that players will honor their contracts. And, a coach leaving isn’t that unusual.
I think on this one – Chicao should declare what they consider market value for Conde. And, if NY is willing to meet it, trade him. If not, there is no reason to let an unhappy player go with a sub-par offer. It doesn’t do the teams or league any good to have either side calling all the shots – we need abalance so the league can grow and the players be happy.
Ives – do you think NYRB would consider paying a real transfer fee for Conde? If so, how much do you think they would be willing to offer $300k etc Surely they can afford it
speaking as a DCU fan and general fan of MLS, i say the more bad blood between teams the better.
however, bad blood between teams and players is considerably less good, considering we already have trouble paying players decently. i’d love to see the Fire let Conde go for a reasonable return, yet stay pissed off about the whole fiasco, and exact revenge by beating the everlovin’ bejeezus out of the Red Bulls every time they meet for the next couple years.
Kovelenko and RedBulls keep his salary on their books – capspace for Conde.
To all the people who think it would be “bad business” to keep Conde, here’s a thought:
It’s bad business not to establish as hard a negotiating position as you can. If Chicago can convince Conde there’s no way he’s getting traded and that his options are (a) the bench or (b) the field, then Conde may well choose to give his all on the field (Ives, he’d hardly be the first holdout to change his mind). If Chicago can convince NY that they don’t care if Conde sits on the bench, then NY will feel like it has to give up more to get him.
Chicago might also be able to shop Conde around during the next non-MLS transfer window. Of course, Chicago could overdo this and kill any interest that NY has, but nothing they’ve said so far has been anything other than textbook “good business”.
Sorry dont see how second rate plyaers plus a draft pick is fair market value for the probable MLS defender of the year. Dane Richards will be the only player that would make it fair. Richards is good but will not be an all star this year …Conde will.
To say Richards is untradeable for Conde is laughable.
If Osorio really wants Conde hell include Richards. If not then he really doesnt want him. Theres no doubt Osorio is pulling the strings on Conde on this. I guess MLS rules dont apply to NJ red bulls and Galaxy.
BUt he should pony up…Conde will help Osorio to bunker down the whole team after he gets a 1-0 lead as is his M.O.
Osorio fool Guppy/Hauptman once shame on Osorio….
Fool them twice shame on Guppy/Hauptman.
by the way, Ives, where did you get that stuff about Argentina? Was it reported back then (if so I don’t remember)? Or is it from Osorio? Seriously, i don’t doubt it, but it’s unsourced, that’s why I ask.
forget about what Chicago should do in this specific situation — what should any team do in such a situation? What would be the consequence for the league if any player, 7 games after being acquired for a transfer fee (or even on a free), said they wanted to follow their coach to his next destination and refused to play unless granted their wish?
Liking the coach helps you make up your mind to move to a team — but if that’s the only reason you sign, then you’re the idiot. Because, everyone knows that coaches move, or get fired or what not.
that a player would not have come to a team and signed a contract but for the coach … pointing that out now is all spin. Fact is, he signed the contract and there is no clause in it that says, “If coach leaves, I go with him.” Nobody would be stupid enough to suggest putting that in their contract and no team would agree to it anyway. You’d be told, “Grow the F up.”
And all this stuff about Argentina and what not is spin also. Again, nobody stuck a gun to Conde’s head, he decided not to go to Argentina and to sign with Chicago, not with Osorio.
I hope that answers your question Ives. You know I’m partial to the Fire, but please apply this standard to any situation in any team (without the distraction of spin) and tell me whether this is a fair analysis.
So when Osorio leaves to coach Liverpool this summer, when can we expect to see Conde in the Reds starting lineup?
I just don’t see Chicago trading him to NY after all that’s gone down. I think their best bet would be to sell him to another league and try and get $300k+ for him if he is so intent on leaving Chicago.
Red Bulls’ woes on the left hand side, particularly at the back, are well-documented.
For a minute, let’s set aside the Osorio drama and the bitterness in the windy city: A player of Conde’s caliber, with the added quality of being a left-footed center back type, would make him a premium acquisition target for the Red Bulls. Add to that Osorio’s probability of playing a back-three, puts Conde at a real premium in terms of Red Bull hole-plugging (to play on the left in a back-three).
I would propose that NY would be willing to, and would have to, put up more than the “Ives offer” of Kovalenko plus cash and picks.
keeping an usettled player is not helpful for a team.
letting him root and let him leave on a free after his contract ends for nothing is not desirable for the club and player either.
If NY want him I’m sure CHI would find something (players, draftpicks, allocation $) which they would happily exchange him for… question then only is, is NY willing to part with that for this player….
still it’s a smaller mess than in cali with the G’s and Alexi…