It was one of the most interesting stories of the MLS off-season. Juan Carlos Osorio’s abrupt departure from the Chicago Fire to the New York Red Bulls and the subsequent feud that followed. It is a feud taken up by both team’s fans and waged by the teams, well at least one team.
You see, Chicago hasn’t let it go. More to the point, the Fire’s new owner, Andrew Hauptman, hasn’t let it go. Ever since Osorio said thanks, but no thanks to staying with the Fire, Hauptman has labled the Red Bulls, and Osorio specifically, as Public Enemy No. 1 in Chicago. According to multiple sources in MLS, Hauptman has told his team officials that the Fire will not do business of any kind with the Red Bulls.
While this shouldn’t come as that much of a surprise, Hauptman’s recent public declarations about his contempt for Osorio’s departure have kicked up some embers on a flame that looked like it might fade. However, in his attempt to discredit Osorio and portray him as a villain to a Fire fanbase that already thinks Osorio is the devil, Hauptman has opened the door to providing a clearer, and more accurate description of the circumstances surrounding Osorio departure from Chicago.
In multiple profiles on Hauptman written in Chicago newspapers recently, the Fire owner made reference to a clause in Osorio’s contract with the Fire that would have allowed Osorio to leave his job. In neither case did Hauptman bother to point out that the fact that Osorio did not exercise that option, and in fact, helped the Fire secure a compensation package that was higher than any paid for a departing coach in the history of MLS.
Yes, you read that right. Osorio’s contract with the Fire included a clause that would have allowed him to resign, and after 30 days, he would have been free to take a position with any other team in the world, MLS or otherwise. The poorly-constructed contract, which came courtesy of Chicago’s previous owners AEG, left the door open for Osorio to walk away.
After initially being denied permission to speak with the Red Bulls about the job vacated by former coach Bruce Arena, Osorio used the escape clause as a bargaining tool. What started as a mild interest in the Red Bulls position turned into a strong desire to leave Chicago as Hauptman’s handling of the situation left Osorio eager to leave the club. With the escape clause as the ideal bargaining chip, Osorio made it clear to Chicago. Either the Fire let him interview with the Red Bulls and let the Red Bulls pay compensation if they hired him, or he would walk away and Chicago would receive nothing upon him being hired by the Red Bulls.
The Fire relented and eventually negotiated a considerable compensation package with the Red Bulls that included cash (which some sources put at approximately $500,000), a major allocation ($300,000) and the Red Bulls first-round draft pick. A hefty price and a price that would not have been paid if Osorio had not felt a sense of obligation to see Chicago compensated.
Chicago accepted that compensation from the Red Bulls, but that didn’t stop the Fire, and specifically Hauptman, from pressing the league to investigate the Red Bulls for tampering. According to sources, MLS proceeded with an investigation, interviewing several of the parties involved in Osorio’s move to the Red Bulls. The league never did penalize the Red Bulls for the alledged tampering.
Perhaps the most ironic aspect of Chicago’s bitterness regarding Osorio’s departure is the fact that the circumstances surrounding the Fire’s courtship of Osorio from Colombian club Millonarios were just as, if not more, questionable than Osorio’s departure to the Red Bull. According to sources, Fire president John Guppy traveled to Colombia to meet with Osorio and watch his training sessions without ever speaking to anybody at Millonarios (and also spoke to Osorio about the Fire head coaching job before he had even fired Dave Sarachan). The Fire never asked for permission to speak to Osorio while he was still Millonarios coach nor did Chicago offer any compensation when Osorio was let out of his contract by Millonarios.
Not exactly the actions of a club that should be crying foul about tampering now, are they? If anything, some would call Osorio’s subsequent departure from the Fire to the Red Bulls a touch of karma. I know Millonarios fans would.
So what now? There is no what now, not when it comes to the Fire and Red Bulls. There is merely contempt and anymosity and while there is nothing wrong with a good old soccer feud, there is just something wrong about a feud not born out of on-field battles, but off-field disputes.
Not bashing Ives, but this writeup somehow seemed to lack the quality (writing style, detail, not sure) of most of his other stuff.
Well, while this topic can go on and on and on annnnd OOONNN–most likely with no resolution (from the fans perspective), at least we can agree on one thing:
F*CK NEW ENGLAND!
that is all.
Steve,
I think each team has a limited amount of discoveries available. I want to say that it used to be 7 discoveries per season, but that number is probably a few years old.
Apparently not Steve. People seem to think Ives is just some anonymous poster on a board with no credibility.
And does anyone understand how sources work? People give inside information to reporters in confidence not saying “hey, post this with my name and a written copy of everything so I can lose my job”
I think Conde is chicagos to do that they want, but I disagree with you fire fans on marmol. I can’t blame you, i blame the league, I just think its the stupidest f*cking thing that a player from another league can’t sign with who he wants, we should just go “discover” every young player in south america so next time someone wants to test mls red bulls get them first
Ives, I’d like to see the contract provisions before I believe any of this. Do you have a copy of the contract? Did you get this from Osorio, from Red Bull management? Will you/they agree to post the contract provisions here? I find it a bit hard to believe that Osorio is such a fine person that he got the Red Bulls to pay out a large sum of $ and a draft pick out of the kindness of his/their hearts. Unless, of course, it was to preempt a tampering investigation on the part of the league.
Also, as a Fire fan who regularly reads your stuff, the tone of this post really bothered me. If this is the kind of stuff we can expect as regards the Fire, you’re going to lose a reader. You’ll get some short-term page views, but lose Fire fans over the long-haul.
With Conde and Marmol in the lineup you’d have to say that the Fire would be favorites. Blanco is driven to win and they are deep all over. Their mostly second string defense has only allowed 1 goal and the players missing are due back in the next couple of weeks. And they will still have some cap space available even if they pay Marmol $150K.
Everyone is looking at this as a catfight between Red Bull and Chicago. I see it as Chicago knowing they have a good squad and trying to augment it every way possible. They have to win something before Blanco leaves so they’re probably a bit more ruthless than they would normally be.
One other aspect that is being overlooked is that Conde and Marmol are “assets” and if they play well can be sold at a profit. Chicago should not be required to relinquish their assets to Red Bull just because Red Bull thinks it would be the right thing to do.
brett:
I don’t understand. If the discussion was over months ago, what exactly is happening here? Are you in denial about the discussion again taking place here because of Ives’ new post?
Also, I don’t understand all of this “whim” nonsense. This sounds like something being made up to justify the behavior of Fire fans and management. How is it a whim if JCO says that he always wanted to be the coach of NYRB someday, not to mention possible consideration for his wife and being closer to a larger Columbian community? All of this was made up, and you have proof?
He isn’t indebted to the Fire because he coached them one season. As far as I’m concerned he could have left Chicago because he just felt like it, and it still doesn’t give Chicago just cause to villainize him. It’s a job, not aa pledge of allegiance.
aristotle- ??? the JCO discussion was over months ago…. the fire fans and organization dislike him b/c he dropped us on a whim…
as a IU alum, if Bobby Knight were to drop us (assuming we drop what really happened) and start coaching Purdue you’d have similar distastes…. in fact if he went to any Big 10 team you come to the same conclusion…..
danj
typical for a DCU fan to base his comment on pure speculation.
“This is most likely coming from someone at NYRB FO…”
Are you serious?
You are going to complain that Ives, an actual journalist doesn’t have corroborating evidence then blindly speculate the source?
Objective Point Of View
I am not a fan of either team and don’t care enough one way or the other as far as the feud goes to be partial in any way.
That having been said, if all of this is true, I can now say that the Chicago Fire fans and the Fire organization should consider themselves lucky. Given the circumstances, what is there for you to complain about?
JCO DID NOT violate his contract. You can’t say a person is violating their contract if they have an option in that contract that says they can legally leave that contract and be hired by anyone else in thirty days.
On top of that you could have ended up with no compensation and it would still have been legal according to the contract. So when you end up getting absurdly excessive compensation for your coach why are you upset? As far as I’m concerned you should be laughing at the Red Bulls organization. They still haven’t done much of anything as far as signing any new players and they gave you a half million in cash, a $300,000 player allocation, and a number 1 draft pick! Just how good do you think JCO is? I don’t want to start another argument (everyone make sure you hear this) but I think NYRB had a better coach in BA. If I’m the Red Bulls I would have given BA longer and spent that money and used the allocation and draft pick to improve the team instead of hiring JCO.
It seems to me the owner of the Fire and some of their fans are acting like petulant children. The Fire don’t even have reason to be resentful of NYRB getting their way and being successful at the expense of other teams to be upset about. As a lot of their fans have pointed out, NYRB has never won anything! NYRB used a DP slot on Claudio Reyna. The Fire used one and got Blanco! If the Fire management and fans feel the need to be resentful or angry at NYRB then I think they must be suffering from very low self esteem!
mike- again all your points are speculations… you think this, you think that…. im simply pointing out what has been presented to everyone… the MLS is negotiating the contract and will present it (when both parties (marmol and MLS) agree) to the fire first,who can accept or deny, then presented to the Redbulls if denied….
Mikemike – yes mike i know gen. adidas players dont count toward cap… simply putting is that the league sees it fitting to give promising talents (hopeful is a better term) a larger chunk of money to not count towards the cap… an idea to keep promising youth in the league…
in this case the fire have plenty of cap to pay marmol, i highly doubt its them… especially with MLS negotiating it…
if the fire say 75k (ur words) and Marmol says 135k, the Fire would then have their choice ahead of them… accept or drop… which leads me to believe the LEAGUE is the one running the show… this would explain giving them a chance and then the discovery claim would be moot, but Marmol has yet to agree to a price…
Neutral fan (DCU, so I hate both sides):
If you are going to explain the situation away with a phantom contract clause, get some corroboration (statement from Hauptman or someone at AEG/Fire, copy of the contract, etc). This is most likely coming straight from someone at the NYRB FO who wants their organization to look better, so we can’t just take them at their word.
Why would Osorio screw over his new employers by not exercising this clause? That compensation package cost NYRB nearly a million bucks and draft pick. If I were a Red Bulls fan (shudder), I’d be pretty pissed off at this news. More likely, we haven’t heard the full story.
mikemike- Because MLS pays for the players salary. Not the Fire Red Bull or anyone else.
What the Fire are willing to pay is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, only that they have the cap space to sign him and would approve losing Marmol’s salary from that cap space.
Translate “owner who can’t let go” as “team which thinks everyone should kiss their rosey red” …
Brett-
Also, Gen adidas contracts do not count against cap.
-Mike
Chicago is quickly turning into Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction.
Drew-
I was trying to have civilized conversation. Thanks for being an jerk!
What is your explanation for the situation?
Brett-
Why would MLS be offering 100k if NY and Chicago say they will pay 135k? The only possiblities in my mind is that Chicago does not want to pay 135k, even though they can, or that Chicago is trying to delay this thing to screw with NY.
In reality, MLS is allowing Chicago to give the league a bad name by not forcing them to resolve this situation with NY.
At this point, I don’t care who gets Marmol, as long as he does sign with MLS. I assume he is a quality player, and that is jsut what this league needs.
-Mike
Three things – for Hauptman)
1) Winning is the best revenge!
2) The fruits of JCOs time in Chicago are rightly Chicagos. JCOs current location is irrelevant to player contracts.
3) Offer the GM job to Peter Wilt.
Mikemike- all of what you said was very opinionated (altho i can definately see how you would come to that conclusion)
the fact is, the MLS offered a 100k contract, it was refused…. the 135k counter offer was refused… the fire have plenty of cap, so i doubt they would see it as 75k when a gen. adidas rookie is making 50k over that O.o
i bit belated, but yes dominghosa, that Bayern come back (twice!) was outstanding/amazing!
Mike – Absolutely speculation. At least you are admitting it. That’s the first step to recovery, or so I’m told.
Your logic makes me chuckle.
khan- logic is lost here…. you will probably get ignored by most the posters… but what you said is spot on
Virginiaman. The Chicago Fire only killed around 300 people which is miraculous when you consider how much of the city burned. The sinking of the Eastland killed almost 3 times as many people. As did the Ft. Deaborn Massacre.
But more importantly the city rose from the ashes and rebuilt itself into an even grander city with modern material at an astonishing rate. 1st ever skyscrapers were result of it and in 20 years had completely morphed into a model for urban life when it hosted the Columbian exposition and was home to some of the great Architects of the period.
The Chicago Fire is point of a pride, it’s why we’re called the Second city. Lesser city’s would have faltered and withered away. Instead Chicago grew stronger, like a forest after a wildfire.
I didn’t have to look any of this up, every true Chicagoan knows it by heart? You know why?? Because we have true civic pride, something D.C. residents will never have.
EDB-
Correct. Contract is with MLS.
I don’t have a source on what NY wants to pay, but have infered it.
1)Marmol has been practicing with the NY for something like 3 months. He has traveled to Austria. Osorio has known him for a good length of time it seems. I am pretty sure that NY isn’t lowballing him. I think they would pay 135k.
2) MLS would not ban a player from playing with a team if the team wants to sign them. Say if San Jose finds a player who is good and wants to spend 150k on the player. I don’t see the MLS saying “no, no no, he’s too expensive.” My basis for this is the Galaxy. As long as it fits under the cap, MLS will let a team sign a player.
3) The difference with this sitution is that Chicago has a discovery claim, and NY wants to sign him. Now MLS has two parties interested in one player.
If you believe that NY is willing to pay 135k, and that MLS will not stand in the way of one team bidding on one player, then Chicago must be against paying 135k for him.
Logically, that is the only possibility.
Very speculative, but given the facts, it seems to be what makes sense.
Maybe, Chicago is saying he is worth 75k and NY is saying 125k and MLS is spliting the difference. I don’t know. But I will put money on the fact that Chicago does not want to pay alot of money for him and they are holding out to F NY.
-Mike
This idea that the FIRE have less salary cap space than red bull is silly, at best. Yes, I’m aware that red bull lost a significant chunk of salary cap space. [Kovalenko, Waterreus(sp?), etc…] But the FIRE lost ~$700k in removing Wanchope, Armas, Guerrero, and Curtin from last year’s salary cap.
But bear in mind: The Fat Finger Pointer stupidly gave a HOLDING MF [you know, the type of player that a MLS team can get for ~$50k-$100k] a DP contract! So Red Bull have 2 DP contracts to satisfy, where the FIRE have only 1.
But this aside, MLS is negotiating the contract, not Guppy. [thank GOD] So if MLS says “no” to $135K/yr, its on MLS, not on Guppy.
Also, Ives is incorrect in portraying this as Hauptman ONLY wanting to screw red bull. Maybe Hauptman feels this way, but that’s immaterial to the discussion. Hamlett WANTS the player in his roster, the team has the cap space, the senior roster slot, and the international slot available. In sum, if MLS can agree with Marmol, he’ll be playing for Chicago if he wants to play in MLS.
I don’t really like the discovery rule, but it is what it is.
The double standard is interesting.
Chicago fans are idiots for hating JCO, but New York fans are in the right to hate Chicago because of Marmol? Both situations are within league rules.
Hate the league, don’t hate the clubs.
Metsfan – it was actually pure coincidence, but my sources did tell me he got a 1600 on the SAT, a 36 on the ACT, and aced the MCAT. Thanks for noticing.
Haha no problem Drew. I had to reach for something based on what you guys do to us in the playoffs. I see red when someone slights my DCU
Yeah have you been to Hoboken Giuseppe? It’s actually a fun town, thanks for noticing. And at best, there is one player and one coach who don’t want to be in Chicago, maybe Marmol doesn’t care as much. Did Blanco come to you guys because you fit in with his intelligence or was it pure coincidence?
Virginiaman – touche. Thanks for making me feel bad. 😉 We have had some nice luck @ you guys in the playoffs though. And come on, you have to respect what Blanco brings to the MLS.
I have nada @ DC…good town, good team, good kits, and you haven’t stolen our coach.
Poor Lider, 21 years old and forced to live in Chicago and player soccer for a lving and only earn $100K a year. How will the poor lad ever survive.
He’s not the victim, RBNY and its lack of squad depth is. Pbbbbt!
HOBOKEN!!!! whoop whoop! what two players metsfans? and what coach? I don’t think JCO’s wife is a coach, but maybe i’m wrong. Anyway, after years of therapy conde may not want to hold onto JCO’s trousers but that’s hardly a geographic issue. And I never heard once from MARMOL (and i’ve been following closely) that he doesn’t want to play in CHI, so if someone could point me that link i’d appreciate it
Giuseppe, in reference to your question about Jersey’s landscape…let the facts answer it. Two players and a coach in recent times vehemently rejecting Chicago for Jersey. Illinois is in high demand clearlyy
Wow. The first game between Chicago and RB is gonna be a good one.
Aguinaga – tell me what you think the fire are doing?? and why you think we are doing it to spit in JCO’s face and not b/c we actually want another talented player??
Metsfan- you are wrong… JCO is the only one who wants to live in NY…. Conde wants to play for JCO… therefore if JCO were to go to KC, then Conde wouldnt have any interest in NY…. Marmol wants to play, while he may feel comfortable in NY/NJ (as he’s been there for a couple months) he has said that he would play for either team (as he also said he enjoyed his stay in Chicago)….
Drew-the last time we won an MLS Cup was in 2004 and we have four. The last and only time for you was 1998. Therefore, I’m sorry, but you’re not right.
P.S. good job naming yourself after a disaster that killed many people
EDB – I think you’re spot on w/the sequence of events w/Osorios contract. He didn’t opt out b/c he wasn’t sure he’d get the job and he was protecting himself. If NY didn’t compensate the Fire at that point it would have been clear tampering. But that isn’t discussed in the article, nor is any viewpoint from Hauptman/the Fire’s perspective. It is clearly a one-sided perspective, which is why people are questioning Ives’ journalistic integrity in this article. If you are going to write this, you need to point out that perhaps you only have 1/2 the story. Si o no?
Really, Marmol’s agent just has Marmol’s best interest at heart doesn’t he? He wants $$$, and that’s it. He knows damn well the kid will get to play, he’s holding out for the most cash. Having two teams fighting over his player, only helps his cause. Let it go guys, Marmol hasn’t known JCO long enough to be as in love with him as Conde is, as long as he gets to play with a top notch team like the RB, or a better one like the Fire, you think he’s going to nix going to play in Chicago? I mean Jersey does have one hell of a landscape though, maybe i’m wrong
Seriously guys .. Marmol has other leagues he can play in and get noticed. You guys act like this is the only soccer league in the world.
Mikemike – why should we drop our discovery claim?? we want him on the team and have plenty of cap space… as MANY people are pointing out this is a business
your post is ridiculous…. If marmol agrees to the MLS’s contract then the Fire will deem if its worthy investment… the fire are not in anyones way… the MLS have to come to agreement with Marmol’s agent before the fire have any say…
1. These MLS discovery rules are asinine.
2. Beto- being fair only requires stating the facts fairly, not painting each side as equally wrong or right regardless of the facts. If the events dictate that one side is wrong, it’s still fair journalism.
3. rpks08- It’s interesting how you say Chicago will always be better than New York when in the past few months two players and a coach have refused to live in Chicago and demand to live in NYC.
That is all.
Virginiaman – the real reason you don’t like the fire is b/c we smoke you every time it counts! Am I right or am I right?
Chicago front office is a J. O. K. E.
Perhaps all the tears will put out the Fire.
Agree with David Martinez. This is a game of chicken btwn the Bulls and the Fire, which neither team can win, and in which Marmol loses most, just for wanting to play in NY.
NY should just turn the other cheek and tell Chicago to go f*ck themselves and thier warmongering, as the longer this goes on, the longer the Fire are enjoying flaunting the advantage they have over RB in this situation. Let’s not be naive. Hauptman isn’t doing this b/c he wants Marmol oh so bad. He’s doing it to try & make NY squirm, at the cost of a young, promising man’s career he’s willing to temporarily stall just to make a point. I think NY fans would be less bitter if they knew Chicago wanted Marmol more for his play vs. more to throw egg on JCO’s face.
I remember a young Danny Szetela wanting to play in NY as well, and also getting the shaft. Yet Freddy got to go where he wanted…
The league is only just now starting to garner attention as an acceptable destination for young talent, South American or otherwise. Nourishing it means the league steps in and helps get the deal done, for either side, and let’s move on. Hurting it means giving that talent yet another reason to avoid MLS in the future…
Mikemike –
where is you source for what NYRB is willing to pay and that Chicago is standing in the way. IF I recall Ives reported earlier that the MLS would make the contract and then offer it chicago, if they refused then NY.
Michael F- this topic was dead before Ives brought it up…. JCO is rarely spoken about, except every now n’ then when he fails from time to time….
i dont recall a single fire post saying “unfair” “stole” or any other crying terms… we simply dont have any respect for a guy who dropped us at a whim…. who would???
Giusepp-
If the Fire withdraw their discovery, NY signs him. Simple as that.
Though the contract is with MLS, the Fire is standing in the way of Marmol signing by keeping their name in the hat.
It is spiteful and idiotic.
-Mike