Photo by ISIphotos.com
There is plenty of blame to go around for the Red Bulls’ embarrassing 5-2 loss to Chicago on Thursday night. It’s almost tougher finding those who weren’t to blame than those who were.
Any list of blame for Thursday’s debacle begins with Red Bulls head coach Juan Carlos Osorio, who made the mistake of choosing a lineup that came up as small as you could imagine in such an important game. Make no mistake, players such as Gabriel Cichero, Juan Pietravallo and Jorge Rojas failed miserably, but Osorio must ultimately shoulder the blame for choosing them.
Osorio didn’t come by choosing his lineup easily. He spent countless hours trying to come up with a lineup that could deliver a result that could help the Red Bulls reach the playoffs. A win or a tie was enough. He ultimately settled on a handful of players that left him open to criticism before the first ball was kicked on Thursday.
Osorio must feel like a cruel trick was played on him on Thursday, when he saw his three South American signings stink up the place and show little of the quality that made them look like such promising acquisitions just two months ago. Early on you could see Rojas’ skill, Petriavallo’s toughness and quality, and Cichero’s ability and confidence.
Slowly but sure all three players morphed into unreliable players whose flaws have laid ruin to Osorio’s best-laid plans for this season. Thursday offered the clearest evidence to indict all three players. Cichero was the most disappointing of the three, looking like the unsure and mistake-prone centerback who looked tragically bad in the team’s losses to Colorado and Real Salt Lake.
Osorio could have stuck with Andrew Boyens and Diego Jimenez at center back, but ultimately decided that it was riskier to play Jimenez, who was nursing a knee injury, than Cichero, who reportedly played a solid game for Venezuela in a World Cup qualifying win against Ecuador. That match turned out to be fool’s gold for Osorio, who must have wanted to tear his hair out as he watched Cichero make mistake after mistake.
it should be noted that the drug suspension of veteran defender Jeff Parke severely cut down Osorio’s options, but it is tough to defend the decision to play Cichero considering how utterly awful he had been in his last two appearances for the team. It remains unclear just how injured Jimenez was, but you almost feel like a one-legged Jimenez couldn’t have done worse.
Osorio’s other lineup decisions were based on understandable factors. Benching Dane Richards drew plenty of criticism from Red Bulls fans but Richards has had a history of struggling against the Chicago Fire, but Pietravallo’s brainless performance made it clear that the Red Bulls would have been better off with Seth Stammler in a defensive midfield role and Richards on the right flank.
Pietravallo’s one half of soccer against Chicago was painful to watch as he made clumsy challenge after clumsy challenge and managed to avoid about two or three chances to draw a second yellow card. It would have been one thing if this was Pietravallo’s first such display, but he has has a handful of matches like that, when his late reactions and poor positioning put him in bad spots, resulting in poor challenges and cards galore.
Osorio’s summer signings weren’t the only disappointments. He went with Mike Magee over Mac Kandji and Magee rewarded Osorio with as toothless a performance as you could want from a forward. Kandji came on in the second half and created problems for the Fire back-line with his size and speed, leading to a goal and nearly a second goal that was cleared off the line by Bakary Soumare.
Does Thursday’s loss, and Osorio’s hand in that loss, mean the coach should be fired? It shouldn’t, but it just might if Red Bull leadership in Salzburg decides he hasn’t done enough in his first year. Ultimately though, it is hard to imagine Red Bull cutting ties with Osorio after the hefty price they paid to the Chicago Fire for his services.
Osorio is still a good coach, and it wasn’t a case of him not preparing his team for Thursday. He spent hours in training going over the exact kind of plays that led to at least three of Chicago’s goals. As much as a head coach must shoulder a hefty portion of blame in situations like Thursday’s, at some point the players must be held accountable. With the exception of Juan Pablo Angel and Dave Van Den Bergh, every other start for the Red Bulls has to come away from Thursday feeling like they could have, and should have done better.
The same applies for Osorio, who will have to wait until Sunday to see if the Red Bulls will be given a second chance and a place in the playoffs. If D.C. United fails to beat Columbus on Sunday, Osorio will have a chance for redemption and if there’s a positive from Thursday’s loss, it is that Osorio learned what players he absolutely cannot count on. It was a painful and costly lesson though and one Osorio must shoulder the blame for.
What do you think of Thursday’s Red Bulls debacle? Do you think Osorio deserves most of the blame? Think the players deserve most of the blame?
Share your thoughts below.
Beckster-
Perralta and Gallardo have been busts… Martinez is actually pretty good. I like american talent as much as the next guy, but south america is worth it if you actually take the time to scout well.
Don’t get the point of this from a Red Bulls beat writer. What’s the point? To get him fired?
Is that really in the best interest of the club? Not that I care about the Red Bulls but I think it is a really stupid time for such critism. It can only have one outcome: more changes and instability at a club that seems to wallow in it.
Alex, gotta agree with you…The DCU south american acquisitions of Gallardo, Perralta and Martinez have been a total bust. Why we can’t hold on to young American players like Boswell and Brian Carroll and develop them is beyond me. Same thing with the Red Bulls. Let’s stop going so much to the South American well – it’s gone dry!
What makes us think that RBNY can do anything right. Since the appointment of Eddie For-money this franchise has had a littany of miscues and has self destructed. From Nick Sackewicz to Alexi Lala hiring and firing at will, many hasty and erroneous decisions have been made. There have been many atrocious coaching appointments (Firmani, Queiroz, Borat Multinovich) hiring mercenaries and bandits as well as a few ridiculous firings. The jury is still out on the Osorio reign. The bottom line is that Metrostars/RBNY have never had a lineup of players that will attract fans or win games. Doesn’t the NY/NJ area deserve a team that plays attractively and wins games I believe that the MLS has given them the same latitude for player signings that it has afforded to LA and DC. Fire the front office!!!
Without a doubt the Fire are superior in almost every position. The Metrostars/NYRB as a franchise is a failure and the REDBULL has not been able to turn the tide. The franchise rebirth is year 15! Maybe w/a new Arena – the ghosts of the Cosmos and and the franchise home opener loss to New England will be purged. Who is laughing louder – Reyna or Arena or Stillitano?
How much is Pietravallo getting paid again? At least Cichero is only on loan
It kind of makes you miss Reyna in the midfield
Ives, thank you for stepping up and saying what needed to be said in a discreet, yet direct way. Osorio has to take the blame for his errors. He’s been losing my confidence steadily, and it’s because of his oddly stubborn arrogance in tinkering with successful line-ups, in staying with losing formations, and in repeatedly fielding flawed players, all in an attempt to prove that his past choices aren’t as bad as they’ve proven to be. I think both fans and the team have suffered in his prideful fumbling hands, and the only hope is that he begins to see and admit his mistakes before going on to repair the damage done.
all this tells me is that these S. American players SUCK!!! Cichero… OMG!! he wouldn’t play for me. Absolute garbage. The problem these teams are having RBNY and DCU is they are relying way too much on foreign talent and not the talent that got them to where they are. there should be no way that cichero makes more than stammler or parke no way. Just because they are an international player doesn’t make them a great player or worthy of a large salary.
Enough whining Ives! Rather than bemoan how the Red Bulls lost, write about how the Fire won. Rolfe’s scored three times because he is a good player, not that NYRB’s defense is atrocious. What about Blanco’s pass from the back line to Rolfe. That deserves credit. The problem is you won’t admit the Fire are the superior team when playing the Red Bulls. Its been this way all season.
Osorio has said explicitly that he plays a different formation on the road than he does at home. It’s defense first on the road and offense first at home.
So if you’re one of the multitude pining for lineup consistency, you can forget it now. It’ll never happen; in case you haven’t noticed, Osorio is very bright but very obstinate.
I would feel a lot better about this if I had the piece of mind that Osorio put our best Starting XI out there and we got beat. Really, I would be okay with that. But the lineup he threw out there was absurd. Knowing the history of RBNY/MetroStars, I think he owed it to the fans to stop tinkering for ONCE and put our strongest lineup out there. Instead he selected a lineup that made little sense and we got crushed. I’m sick to my stomach.
Goal #1 Defense screwed up by not covering the posts once Cepero left his spot. That goal would never have happened otherwise
Goal #2 Great volley by Rolfe, no way any goalie could have reached that one. Have to give him the credit he deserves
Goal #3 Poor marking by Leitch. No reason to double team ANYONE. But I do have my suspisions there may have been an offsides. MAYBE…
Goal #4 Poor effort by Boyens/Cichero. They gave up on the play.
Goal #5 Bad effort by Cepero, the small box is the goalies PROPERTY. No one should head a ball uncontested EVER. And the defense just gave up…
I totally agree with most people regarding JCO job….he should definately be allowed to stay one more year….secondly, we needed a win last night(or at least a tie) and he put stammler on the right to “defend” mapp….stammler should have been our D-mid considering how poor petriavallo been playiing and put either mbuta or richards on the right where they belong….now i’m not to excited about jimenez but i didn’t mind having cichero in the middle(honestly i think his confidence is an issue considering how well he was doing when he first arrived)…but a formation of 3-5-2 wouldn’t have been a bad idea if osorio wanted to control the ball….he should have started kanji but thats another story although i was not to displeased with magee in the lineup even though he had a horrible game…..the whole team put up a horrible game and everyone should be held responsible(except for maybe angel and vdb)….hopefully we’ll get into the playoff and get a chance to redeem ourselves…..it would also be interesting to see what lineup osorio puts out there if we do make the playoffs
Bring RODRIGO RIOS from the Atlanta Silverbacks
I don’t think firing him is going to improve anything. He is a good coach, Red Bulls just had a bad year. Red Bulls need some continuity more than anything right now.
I’m resigned to the fact that he’s gonna stay, even though Energy Drink said one round and out was unacceptable last year.
That said, he’s got a laundry list of things to do:
1. Convince JPA and DVDB to stay
2. Purge the considerable dead weight
3. Find the right player to be the 2nd DP
4. Have the core of “his team” in there for the START of the 2009 season
5. Find his starting 11 and stick with it, within reason
6. Forge a team style and identity. I mean what were we this year, an offensive team? A defensive team? A speed team? A possession team? A dirty team? We were nothing, really.
Damn, whoever is in charge has a tough road ahead.
Players. Osorio did all he could. He thought he found the right players, and I mean, I’d be a liar if I thought Rojas and Cichero weren’t any good, initially. I don’t know what happened to them. Rojas plays like he doesn’t care. Gabe makes so many mistakes.
The team played well when they first came onboard, stringing together a few good wins, and even last week we looked good. Put Gabe and Rojas in and we looked horrible.
JCO must stay. Rojas must go. Cichero’s loan should be allowed to expire. They had their chance to get out of Venezualian football, but they didn’t take it. I don’t know what else can be done.
We obviously need an experienced CB to anchor the backline. Come back, Petke! Draft a bunch of defenders, hope one works out, and just try to find something that works on our back line. I’m not worried about our attacking options so long as Kandji, Mbuta, Richards, Angel, and VDB stay. We just need something that can pass as a defense.
No question Osorio deserves a lot of the blame for this. And what was mentioned here is just the start of it. Why did he bring in Luke Sassano, a defensive player who was used sparingly at best, into a game he was losing 3-1? Why didn’t Kandji start? Why wasn’t Mbuta even made available?
Still I wouldn’t want to see JCO go either. He’s passionate about the team and clearly dedicated to its cause (the same of which cannot be said for some former Metro coaches, who shall remain anonymous). And obviously yet another coaching change cannot be good for the team either.
I bet Reyna could have guided them into the playoffs with all the little things he does so well.
Yes, by all means, please give Osorio another year. 😀
Love the Conde comments too, “Yeah, we’d be a lot better if the other team gave us one of the players we wanted.”
ROTFLMAO!!!
I’m not a RBNY fan, but I agree that the rotating door of coaches can’t be a good thing. Osorio did a good job at Chicago while he was here, and he might have had difficulties in his second season. Who knows, maybe he was thinking of bringing some of the same players before his mind turned to the NY job? But his leaving wasn’t good for the continuity of the club. And RBNY won’t be doing itself any favors by canning him. The problematic thing is that he has some players now who don’t look quite so good as their resumes.
Just for the sake of continuity for once I wouldn’t fire the coach even if that was the only reason. I do think he is a good coach, though, who made several mistakes in team selection yesterday.
I didn’t like Rojas/Magee playing at the same time, Kandji and MButa on the bench (he’s right about Richards playing bad against Chicago but I think he’s too good not to put it there based on matchups, but I get his reasoning), Cichero instead of Jiminez (unless he was hobbled he should have started).
I also didn’t like the Sassano for Stammler sub. I know that Stammler was injured, but like I said yesterday, I think the right move would’ve been slotting Van Den Bergh centrally and putting in Richards or MButa on the wing.
– Give Osorio another year.
– Lose Pietravallo, Rojas, Cichero. (his 3 that he waited oh-so-long to sign).
– Fire Agoos.
– Make sure Angel, Van den bergh, Stammler, Kandji, Richards, Mbuta stay.
– Goldthwaite, Boyens, Jimenez, should stay if they’re not taking up too much salary. They’ve all had good games as well as horrible games.
– everyone else: lose as needed. If they end up staying, fine.
– pick up: one stud central defender. one stud creative midfielder. A choice of another good defender and/or midfielder.
– go hard after Thierry Henry, while realizing it’s a bit of a pipe dream.
Rinse. Repeat.
Posted by: kahlva | October 24, 2008 at 03:44 PM
So NY should do as they always do and fire everybody and lose all their continuity……again.
NY will never improve if they keep dumping and adding many players in the off-season and mid-season.
chicago deserved to win that game 5-2 on paper and they did. Chicago’s talent and experience far outweigh RB’s and it showed. Richards and Kandji in the starting line up would have not changed anything.
Agoos should catch some heat for sleeping behind the wheel
Like many teams in MLS, the Red Bulls are streaky. Back in July/Aug they were unstoppable and had mental toughness to jump on teams and grind out results when needed. I’m sure there are many people on these boards who praised JCO during that time for the team’s good play.
Then the fall hits and suddenly Rojas et all don’t even look like professional players. It’s mystifying. I don’t think JCO is suddenly a bad coach, but he definitely tinkers too much for my taste, but I think he should be retained for at least one more season. I was pissed off when they fired Bradley after only a couple seasons, but at least he had some time to shape the team. Arena should have gotten more time as well since he had a full season and another handful of games. MoJo barely got any time at all. So lets stop the revolving door and take a chance on JCO and the fact that we’ll have a brand new stadium and the money from our Austrian overlords to attract at least one more big time player.
Good article Ives. I would think Osorio would take a long inward look and realize that he is as much at fault for last night’s stinker as many of the players were.
I think he should stay another season and make lineup consistency his number one focus.
you ppl act like you never seen a late season melt down before. chillax
“every other start for the Red Bulls has to come away from Thursday feeling like they could have, and should have done better.”
I think they didnt do better because they simply can not. These are NOT good players on the field. They are poor players, and this have been demonstrated over and over.
I hope Osorio is man enough to resign on his own. Please bring in Paul Mariner from NE a guy with the straight brain something we never had in NY since Bob was let go.
i agree he should take majority of responsibility, but the players should not get off easily. Osorio should be given another full year, one year is not enough.
I don’t know where to start… While I’d still give Osorio one more year, that by no means I’m satisfied with the changes so far. I think the DM-Stammler, R-mid Richards lineup would’ve been much more solid, but the reality is the defense is even more to blame. The one thing we needed to do heading into last off-season was to shore up the D-line. This was not done. Osorio has added two more defenders… scratch that, he’s added two more WORTHLESS DUNG PILES, to sit back there and watch opponents run by them. They are not defenders. Time after time this has happened all year and last year. When will we get a coach who learns and just blows up a team and starts over. Get rid of every single defender on our team, I’m serious!! Start from scratch, draft somebody. Hey Kandji has looked great, let’s poach some other guys from USL. When I saw that first goal with Rolfe beating four blue-shirts to the ball to head it home, I knew it was over, I mean really how unmotivated can you be to just jog back to the net. What did they think Cepero was gonna hit a 90 yard goal this time to make up for it??
Ives, tell me when it will end, tell me when we will matter again, tell about our huge War-chest to spend, tell me about our new stadium, tell me about our DP2 slot, something, anything, cause right now it’s all meaningless, meaningless, everything is meaningless…
– Give Osorio another year.
– Lose Pietravallo, Rojas, Cichero. (his 3 that he waited oh-so-long to sign).
– Fire Agoos.
– Make sure Angel, Van den bergh, Stammler, Kandji, Richards, Mbuta stay.
– Goldthwaite, Boyens, Jimenez, should stay if they’re not taking up too much salary. They’ve all had good games as well as horrible games.
– everyone else: lose as needed. If they end up staying, fine.
– pick up: one stud central defender. one stud creative midfielder. A choice of another good defender and/or midfielder.
– go hard after Thierry Henry, while realizing it’s a bit of a pipe dream.
Rinse. Repeat.
If D.C. goes down and the Red Bulls make the playoffs, all will be forgiven pretty quick. As long they are not embarrassed in the first round.
Let’s see what happens if we get a second chance and get into the playoffs ass backwards. I was openly complimentary of JCO when he first joined, loved that he seemed the perfect soccer bookworm, crawling up and down the sidelines notepad in hand, and with player connections in South America that got Chicago someone like Conde. However, there is no room left for any kind of mercy or sympathy after this one.
Osorio doesn’t seem capable of learning from his mistakes. In addition, the team chemistry and positional familiarity that comes from working with the same cast of teammates week in and week out seem like foreign concepts to him, exchanged for everyone being treated like so many spare parts. It’s one thing to be Rafa Benitez at Liverpool, and have players actually talented enough to pull off tactical changes week after week in the name of customizing your strategy to the opponent. It’s another when you play with the strategy like you’re putting together Legos, seeing what shape they can take this week and then field testing its strength… most of the RB players just aren’t talented enough and familiar enough with each other to pull it off succesfully.
In terms of individual player selections, what’s so wrong about letting the players who built confidence last week and got you a win play together again?? Kandji’s omission to play Magee instead was absolutely disturbing. Mbuta’s strength, skills, and aggressiveness on the right have to be preferable to Stammler’s versatility there, or to Richards pace. Last, Pietravallo is only capable as a DM that can distribute when he has Stammler next to him.
Overall, the team had no fight in them yesterday once they went a goal down. They gave up right then and there. That can’t be bad tactics or bad player selections. That’s bad coaching.
Oops. DC has 10 road losses; Columbus has 10 home wins. Brain damage, apparently. But the point still stands.
DC has a 2W 2D 12L road record this year. We’re still suffering from significant injuries, and relying on players nursing injuries. We’re not mentally tough or well-disciplined, and the recent debacle in Mexico City hasn’t helped in that regard. We haven’t played really well since June. And DC has to win — a draw won’t do it. Two road wins this year! Twelve road losses! Meanwhile, Columbus is planning on playing their first team for this game. They have a 12W 2D *2L* home record this year. Just two home losses this season. They’ve been playing great.
In DC, while people are hopeful, we’re not running around confident that we’re in; so I don’t know why RB fans are confident that they’re out.
This is like the Spurs situation: the manager should be gone but they are embarassed b/c of what they gave up to get him here.
Keeping this manager won’t make up for past mistakes. RB regressed this year, plain and simple.
And this isn’t the EPL, where it takes several years (or billionaires money) to get to the top of league. MLS is mediocre, so a good manager who brings in good players from the start of the season can certainly make an impact that season.
Red Bulls are in a coma and not the morgue. Shouldn’t all of this blame stuff wait until the playoff picture is settled on Sunday?
I would MAYBE give osorio one more year to prove his worth … but i would like the team to cut ties with pietravallo and cichero … rojas i believe does not have a big salary so i would keep him and I hope the red bulls DEFINITELY hold on to kandji as he showed true ability and flair and i blame osorio for not using him enough
Marmol doesn’t even get off the bench for Chicago. Conde would have made a difference. Unfortunately if the players don’t have confidence they can’t perform.
Osorio is an outstanding manager. I think it’s obvious he did everything he could with the squad on the training ground this week leading into Toyota Park. The trouble is, its up to the players to execute the game plan and tactics. Rojas, Cichero and Pietravallo simply did not show up whether it was because of the rain, temperature or what there is no excuses. Osorio could not have done more then what he did. I also wonder how different would things with the Red Bulls be if they would have been successful in the signing of Marimol from Chicago? Or was it Conde? I think it was Conde. He could potentially made a difference in defense for the Red Bulls but we will never know.
I agree with anotherbody on this, but JCO did get completely and thoroughly outcoached. It was awful. Thanks for reminding me Ives. 😉
This is nothing new. I don’t know if you can defend JCO as much as you do in this article. The same group of players from last year who stuggled to win games has had a hell of a season in Chi town with a new coach. Osorio promotes self confidence issues from his players by constantly tinkering with the line-up and starting players who don’t deserve the start.
again, nice piece, and i think a very fair one, at that.
JCO should shoulder some of the blame, but i still want RBNY to give him another full year. i’m sick of coaches coming in and out every year.
there’s a lot of blame to be had… Osorio’s shoulders aren’t nearly big enough
(see what I did there?)
We cant completely blame JCO. Like you said he did his best. The one problem that cost them the game was that Osorio didnt learn from past games and mistakes.
They have to give Osorio one more year. The lack of continuity is worse than anything. I’m sure some will rip me, but in terms of pure talent I think this roster is superior to last years, give him more time to work with it I say.
Ives, you’re dead on! Osorio needs to step up and take the majority of the blame here but this still shouldn’t cost him his job. RBNY needs to settle and this may just be part of it. He has seen what players can and can’t do under the greatest pressure and now will have a better idea how to fix the holes.
HAHAHAH KARMA!!! ROLFE IS THE MAN!!