It's a slow day on the news front, at least today relative to Tuesday's menu of car-bombings, outed affairs and the most recent Mexican player shooting. The days after the close of the winter transfer window usually are on the slow side, but there are some topics to discuss.
I will be looking to post the latest installment of Your Questions Answered shortly, but I wanted to go over a few things to give you all something new to discuss. Let's get started:
PAYNE MISSES MARK COMPARING ANGEL AND EMILIO
D.C. United Kevin Payne is one of the most well-respected front office folks in Major League Soccer, but he lost the plot with his recent comments comparing now-former D.C. United striker Luciano Emilio and New York Red Bulls striker Juan Pablo Angel.
"Luciano Emilio was a DP and he scored a lot more goals than Juan Pablo Angel," Payne told ESPN.com. "Some people questioned whether Luci was a DP. You've got to look at the numbers. He scored 50-plus goals for us in all competitions."
What Payne seems to have forgotten was that many of those goals came in Emilio's first MLS season, when he actually wasn't a Designated Player. In the two seasons Emilio spent as a Designated Player, he produced 21 goals in 54 MLS matches, a good scoring rate but hardly a dominating rate playing in one of the league's better offenses. To Emilio's credit, he did post seven goals outside MLS competition and did help D.C. United win a U.S. Open Cup in 2008, but D.C. United also missed the playoffs both years Emilio was on the books as a DP.
Emilio scored more combined goals than Angel during his three seasons with D.C., but he also benefited from playing in more than two dozen more matches than Angel thanks to D.C.'s involvement in competitions such as the Champions League and SuperLiga. Ultimately, when you break down just MLS matches (including playoffs), Angel has scored 47 in 78 matches in three seasons while Emilio managed 41 in 83 matches.
Emilio deserves credit for being such a productive forward during his time in MLS, but he was always an inferior forward to Angel and the fact remains that when Emilio was a Designated Player he was a disappointment. That is ultimtely why he is no longer with D.C. United. To imply that he was a better Designated Player signing than Angel, the most productive and most successful DP in terms of on-field production in MLS history, is a serious stretch.
The reality is that you would be hard-pressed to find an MLS team that wouldn't have preferred Angel over Emilio at any point in Emilio's three seasons in MLS. Something tells me even Payne himself would have swapped Emilio for Angel if given the chance.
CHINA A NEW COMPETITOR FOR MLS
You wouldn't think of the Chinese Soccer Leagues as being in competition with MLS for players, but recent news that Honduran national team players Jerry Palacios and Mauricio Sabillon have gone to play in China leaves me wondering how that happened. Palacios and Sabillon are two highly-regarded players in Central America and would certainly be able to help teams in MLS, but both departed for China after taking part in Honduras' 3-1 exhibition win against the United States.
It is one thing to be outbid by Europe for players such as Wilson Palacios, Maynor Figueroa and Hendry Thomas, but losing Honduran prospects to China makes you wonder if this is a sign of things to come. It could just be a passing fad, and Palacios and Sabillon could very well still wind up in MLS one day if their Chinese adventure falls flat, but it is something to think about.
To be fair to MLS, it has done well to tap into the Salvadoran market with signings such as Cristian Castillo and Osael Romero, but MLS can't afford to completely be shut out of the Honduran player market because the tiny Central American nation continues to produce good talent.
CHICAGO EYEING MORE ROOKIES
The Chicago Fire scored one of the best hauls at the 2010 MLS Draft, but its collection of rookies could get even better now that undrafted free agents Mark Blades and Jovan Bubonja are in camp.
Blades is a promising fullback prospect whose size (5-foot-6) led to him being passed over on draft day while Bubonja was a highly-regarded goalkeeper prospect who went from top draft candidate in 2009 to undrafted in 2010 after a disappointing senior season at Illinois-Chicago and a lackluster MLS Combine.
Both players face stiff competition to make the Fire roster, but the fire just might wind up finding a gem or two.
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What do you think of these topics? Agree with the Emilio-Angel comparison? Worried about MLS losing foreign prospects to China? Like what Chicago is doing with its pre-season roster?
The J League is pretty solid, so I would think your comparison ends at the ownership groups. I think MLS would kill for the fan bases the J League teams enjoy.
China has it’s knocks. They lost their television contract and corruption with the refs is rampant.
Like some places (JAPAN), the teams are owned by rich guys or corporations looking for a prestige toy and don’t care if they lose money.
Attendance isn’t good at all.
I would like to see if any of these teams are actually making money before we start recommending MLS pay millions in transfer fees for guys no one has ever heard of nor would draw a single extra fan to an MLS match
Ives – haven’t been able to glean this information from anywhere else – are the USL/NASL teams going to be eligible for the U.S. Open Cup this year? Since they are psuedo-sanctioned with the USSF running the league I would imagine they are.
Would definitely lend credibility to the league with the chance of a fixture with an MLS side a possibility.
Not really that short.
Short for a center back.
Then look at the other 90% of transfers that do work using that method and otherwise the team would never have gotten!
Relying on loans is a terrible way to go about business. If I am a team owner and I’m willing to loan out a player and another team comes in and offers a $1 million for his services – I’m going for the money. The other way is a risk; if he doesn’t play well, I don’t get the transfer fee.
I played against Dykstra and scored… Never thought I would be able to say I scored on a MLS keeper : )
Slugger,
Didn’t Emilio and JPS score pretty much the same number of goals?
And didn’t DC win the Supporter’s shield?
That would seem to be a tie-breaker in Emilio’s favor.
Emilio slowed the next couple of years but was still a servicable forward in MLS (though not worth the DP tag, though most DP’s aren’t)
That reply was to Ives not Bill…
So Angel’s achievements were worth more is what I was implying.
Short sighted – 3 years ago Emilio was pounding in more goals AND wasn’t a DP… A DP Angel over a regular paid Emilio? Not in my books…
And the Red Bulls stink. I don’t care that they made the final in 2008–they weren’t that great of a team.
really 5’6″ as a fullback?
w00t w00t!
Yea, but those guys all played in the league on loan before the transfer was made, MLS has a stance not to pay transfer fees on guys that have not played in the league before. Which I support, take Robinho, look how much Money City would have saved if they would have just taken Robinho on loan instead of an out right transfer? Makes good business sense to me.
about the hondurans…..
you ever think that MLS didnt put in offers for them?
i dont think too many MLS teams are scouting any longer, i think most of them have there minds up on who to sign from pre-season training and other wise
atleast that the way it seems
P.S…..former Arsenal player Ryan Smith who last played for Crystal Palace is on Trial with Kansas City, hes got good pace and would definately help out KC in the attack
Collins John is on Chicago’s pre-season list as well
MLS Schedule up
http://web.mlsnet.com/mls/schedule/2010/
I have to imagine the MLS can’t compete with the China league in terms of cash. Though, the Chinese league cant offer these players good competition. This will only hurt Honduras chances in the World Cup and future international competitions. Having said that, the MLS does need to bring in Honduran players. The Honduran market in the US is to big to ignore. As Ives said, the MLS did do a good job in bringing in young El Salvadoran talent.
There’s only one pablo angel!
You make good points, especially in terms of Emilio’s role as mostly a goal poacher. Anyone who watched the two play could see that in terms of skill, Angel was a class above. That being said no one can discount the numbers Emilio put up.
MLS does pay transfer fees.
Recent examples are Marco Pappa, Willem Conde adn Fredy Montero.
One factor you didn’t consider was wages. Emilio cost in three years about the same as Angel per year.
Don’t underestimate the value aspect to an MLS side. They were close enough on goals, but do you honestly think over a 3 year period (DP or not), that the extra 6 goals was worth over $3m more?
I certainly dont think so.
Angel is a better player, no doubt, but he missed games through injury (a lot actually). The debate on true value isn’t kjust about goals.
For those who are bored due to lack of updates, you might want to try this “fantasy” soccer game:
http://www.trophymanager.com
Good game; let me know if you already play it.
Sorry for the salty language, Ives. Thanks for the edit.
Well said, Ives. Take that Payne and DC United! Long Live MetroStars/Redd Bulls! (Feels good to act 12 sometimes.)
Samuel Caballero played for the Chicago Fire a few seasons ago (2005?)
As a United fan, the only way I would feel comfortable arguing that Luciano Emilio was a better Designated Player than Juan Pablo Angel would be on a dollars basis. While Emilio was a DP for the last two years of his three year term with United, you could argue that the goals he scored were of better value than those Angel scored.
And while you could say that Luci played in more matches to score so many goals, DC United has demonstrated that the increase in games tended to lead to a decrease in performance. Even in Luci’s first year with United, his numbers declined as the playoffs approached. Then, by the time the Playoffs arrive, Luci was injured.
It was a blessing and a curse.
In the end though, I think most MLS fans would agree that they’d rather have Angel than Emilio in their line-up, if given a choice between the two.
Who cares! these guys are mercenaries, anyone who goes to play in CHina is about the money, we are building a brand here, and to do that you need loyalty and the growth is slow, who here would pay these guys what they want? So why should MLS? If you look at salaries in sports now they are ridiculously inflated, no one else gets a 300% raise, Theres no way they can keep the salaries up, though people on the island love the sport and are mad about it, the teams can not charge the appropriate fee to match the salaries and daily expenses they have just to operate, so to be disgusted because MLS isn’t just throwing around money is a little short sighted. The largest costs to most teams are players salaries and transfer fees, if you eliminate one preferably transfer fees then you can offer better salaries and even reinvest money into the team, I agree with MLS’s stance not to pay transfer fees especially on guys that have never played here before. Loans are the way to go, they make the most economical sense.
I would think that Bubonja has a chance to supplant Dykstra as the Fire #2 keeper but Blades is going to really have to wow the staff to find a spot. The Fire already will need to cut a senior roster player if Collins John is signed and they only had 3 developmental slots available for 5 rookies, 2 of which are GA and pretty much guaranteed to make the team.
In other news bob saget said something disgusting.
apparently TFC did not re-sign Adrian Serioux. any word on where he might end up?
The Chinese interest in Honduras also may have something to do with Hondurans Emil MartÃnez and Samuel Caballero, 2008 and 2009 footballers of the year in China. When back to back players of the year are from the same foreign country, there’s going to be a lot of demand for that country’s talent.
JERMAINE JONES JOGGING!
I would assume that financials play a large role in Hondurans going to China. But I would not be surprised if those players only lasted one season in China before they left to go elsewhere. Despite our failing economy, the standard of living in the US is still significantly higher than in China. Cleaner air, cleaner water, less congestion. My guess is these guys collect some $$ and then go elsewhere.
Good points — the case is more complicated than Ives makes it out to be. Plus, the extra games aren’t necessarily to Emilio’s “benefit.” They took an enormous toll on DCU’s entire roster. Fatigue definitely affected Emilio and his teammates, and probably played a role in all those injuries.
Breaking News: Kevin Payne spews more self-justifying bull(crap).
Chinese teams do pay well. Sad that MLS cant compete with salaries from Ecuador, Chile and now CHina?
Get with it MLS, we are losing talented players because you want to offer players nothing and also want trials..
Indeed — MLS is going to have to loosen up the purse strings. A year or two ago, several teams were interested in Osman Chavez — the Galaxy put in the discovery claim — but the deal never materialized because the MLS wasn’t willing to pay the club what they wanted…apparently, not even in the same ballpark. This past transfer period, Chavez was on trial in the UK, with Celtic and Blackburn…with a transfer of over $2 million looming. So, it’s not even good business sense. MLS could be reaping the profits of a transfer to an EPL-side, instead of his Honduran club. Plus, the league could use some genuinely talented players.
Correction to that. Angel had one of his OKs saved. So it’s Angel 10, Emilio 10 from the flow of play.
“Emilio deserves credit for being such a productive forward during his time in MLS, but he was always an inferior forward to Angel and the fact remains that when Emilio was a Designated Player he was a disappointment.”
—
Is that rebuttal relevant, or is it just hindsight analysis? Payne is defending, as much as anything, his decision to sign the DP contract. No one can be Nostradamus, and going in with 20 goals makes it look like a decent bet.
Worth noting, too, is that Emilio still did put in 10 goals in front of a MASH ward of a midfield. Worth noting too is that Emilio did not take DC’s penalties, where Angel did. Emilio had 10 goals from the flow of play last season, Angel had 9.
That said, the real difference is that Emilio’s production is mostly limited to just his goals, where Angel is a more well-rounded player. He creates more for teammates and improves the possession.
The word on the Hondurans is that they are trying to go to a place where they can play immediately to showcase themselves for the World Cup team. Since MLS doesn’t start until March, and there is no guarantee they would be given starting roles immediately, the players took the option of going to China for higher pay and instant playing time, but I believe both are on short term contracts. Not sure how true that all is, but that is the word on the street.
Chinese league pays VERY well, according to Hondurans who have played there before. Also, Chinese are willing to pay the fees that Honduran clubs teams require…which has been a problem with MLS…at least that is what I’ve heard out of Honduras.
Also, players are not the only targets of Chinese league. Coaches have been contacted with much better salaries, a house, driver, maid, the works.
But obviously, it’s China.
I’ve always thought Angel was overrated. Emilio was pretty darn good before this last season. I guess I’d give the edge to Angel over Emilio, but both are slowing too much for my tastes.
I am a Fire fan. I think the Fire are looking more and more like a work-in-progress. Yes, good players but a lot of new players, new coach and probably a new style of play. I just hope it can be figured out by the time the MLS season is halfway done.
Payne’s been beating that drum for a long time. It was his lobbying that won Emilio the MVP award over JPA in 2007 when the latter clearly deserved it.
I think Emelio was a great player. A stretch to compare? I wouldn’t say so – they both were DP and both were on sub-par teams. They play with different styles. But, dollar for dollar it’s considered understandable to compare Angel’s numbers/salary with Emelio’s.
Perhaps you’ve forgotten but Angel’s production dropped off a bit after his first year as well. So, no it’s not a stretch – I think in this case you, Ives, are being just a tad biased.
I would say that Payne is doing a bit of justification of that DP (i.e. word-smithing)
(SBI-It is not a stretch to compare Bill, but it is a stretch to imply Emilio was much better, which is what Payne did with his “A lot more goals” statement. And it isn’t about bias (didn’t take long for someone to toss that one out), you won’t find a GM or head coach in the league who would take Emilio over Angel. Not now, not three years ago.)
For the record, check out what the mainstream media called beasley’s car: “Blown Up” in the headline. Also note that this is under the NFL folder.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/us-soccer-stars-car-blown-up-in-glasgow
Ives, you forgot to mention that Jerry Palacios and Sabillon not only went to China, but to the second division!! I don’t get why they didn’t come to MLS, it worked out okay for Ramon Nunez and some others, now all that’s left is Marvin Chavez, Roger Espinoza, and Mauricio Castro.
Imagine how many goals Angel would have scored if he was on a good team. He is clearly the best forward in the league and I give him credit for playing so well on such a bad team. Hopefully this year will be better…
Wow…neither guy in that photo look to pretty..lol