Major League Soccer's desire to have a second team in the New York market is well-documented, as is the fact that league officials have been working feverishly to find a stadium project in New York City that could make a second NY team a reality.
Now we know just how close to realizing that goal MLS actually is.
According to the New York Post, MLS is closing in on a $300 million stadium project in Queens, New York, with a 25,000-seat stadium expected to be built in Flushing Meadows, next to Citi Field and the Arthur Ashe Tennis Stadium.
Approval of a stadium project would make it that much easier for MLS to find an ownership group willing to spend the money MLS is hoping to generate from a second team in the New York market, though at this point it is unclear if there is currently an ownership group winning the race for a second New York MLS team.
What do you think of this development? Surprised to see the league making this much progress on a New York stadium? Still don't think the New York market should have a second MLS team?
Share your thoughts below.
Wht is the Red Bull ttendance average this year? Anyone? How does it compare to the other 18 teams. Just tired of hearing tem isn’t doing well. Fact is those empty seats you see are sold ST. Try buying one.
18k in an 18k arena looks great vs. 18k in 25k arena, which team is drawing the most?Hmm! Anyone?
I’m sure some of this is re-hash, but here are my main objections.
1. If RBA is such a PITA to get to, why the F did MLS let them build it in Harrison in the first place?! They should’ve located RBNY in Flushing or Newark, or Pier 40 or whatever.
2. It’s absolutley relevant to point out that NY isn’t supporting RBNY. Why should NY get a 2nd team when they can’t fill even HALF (!) of RBA consistently? If the location is the problem, move RBNY and explain to NJ taxpayers why they subsidized a giant white elephant.
3. This is made a literal outrage by the league’s refusal to support DC United’s stadium efforts. To have your flagship franchise (most MLS Cups, I’m a SKC fan, so not a homer) playing in a stadium that 3rd world national teams would refuse to play in is a disgrace. Pi$$ing around $300M on a NY2 fantasy playground while DCU languish is indefensible.
4. There are several better bets for attendance and developing rivalries in the league. Off the top of my head, St. Louis, Minneapolis, the Carolinas (Charlotte, Raleigh/Durham/Cary, or Charleston), and Orlando all make infinitely more sense for growing the game nationwide, expanding the league’s footprint, and/or fostering regional rivalries.
5. Taken with the mid-season rule change to disadvantage a solid defensive team (coincidentally SKC!), the league’s continued obsession with NY2 is a persistent slap in the face of “flyover country” clubs that MLS shows no interest in protecting through equitable salary & competition rules, putting on TV, or helping by developing regional rivalries. Sporting KC’s nearest “rival” in the East is Chicago (8.5 hour drive away). Minneapolis might not be a huge improvement, but it’s a city KC is used to having a rivalry with and is a bit closer. St. Louis would be a dream. Instead of over-filling the NE I-95 corridor, I’d like to see some real diversity from the league.
Finally, shut up NY’ers. KC fans routinely drive multiple hours from surrounding smaller cities (Omaha, Tulsa, Wichita, Springfield MO). Boston fans in the city or north have to drive 1 hour plus to Gillette (don’t get me started on how badly the Krafts are screwing the Revs). If NY soccer fans were really so committed, they’d be making it happen for RBNY now, but they’re not. Thus, I strongly disagree with the push for NY2.
What about the Sounders’ support would indicate to you that they aren’t there for the match – the cheering throughout, the early arrival and late departure, the traveling to road matches, the strong supporter community, etc. ?
And the answer is: RBA is smack dab in the middle of the most passionate futbol area in the nation. The Ironbound section of Newark is a stones throw and Kearny and Harrison are major futbol hot beds. It’s a Brazilian, Portuguese and South American hot spot so of course you have an Austrian owner with, let’s see, ZERO Brazilian, Portuguese or South American DPs. I suggest you google the Ironbound section of Newark, which most casual fans don’t take advantage of.
There is absolutely nothing to be jealous of when in comes to soccer in NYC since the days of Pele. People are mad that MLS decides who gets a new stadium and who doesn’t based on the size of the market, and not the investment of time and money that so many other communities have made.
I thought when MLS sold part of SUM they realized they had to take the academy system to the next level in order to match the best leagues in the world. It turns out they just want to hand a team to NYC and have a stadium to play all the glamour friendlies involving USA and Mexico in downtown NYC and collect an expensive franchise fee, all while not having to add any additional revenue from club and national team friendlies in a prime location into the salary cap.
As someone who has made a 3 hour roundtrip to support the Crew several times a year, my reaction is not one of jealousy. I just happen to loathe people who get things handed to them instead of earning what they get. In this pathetically short sited cash grab, NYC is getting handed a franchise for doing NOTHING in decades. Cry me a river about the long commute and lack of a player to “excite” the local market. You know what really excites true soccer fans in the USA? A team to support. NYC already has one. There is no group of fans I respect more than an original MLS NYC fan that has paid for the honor of watching crap soccer for close to two decades.
Now I’m starting to realize I was sold a lemon when I started to spend money on MLS. I was told about a commitment to parity and how we needed to model our league after the NFL, and I bought into it. 300 million would be better spent on trying to develop a youth system to produce the next generation of USA talent, than on trying to impress a bunch of too cool for MLS New Yorkers. I don’t want MLS to turn into a rigged league like almost every other soccer league in the world, but we’re heading in that direction.
All due respect but I’m pointing out the OBJECTIVE, modest value of a present day national (much less cheaper local) TV deal for MLS, and the response is to call me shortsighted with faith based SUBJECTIVE theories on what a future TV deal might be worth. Throwing $300 million around on subjective guesses strikes me as passion overwhelming proof.
And then the other factor no one seems to want to address is that if you go big money on a NY stadium the revenues have to go up by a multiplier from everyone else just to keep pace with the added cost/ mortgage, much less turn a profit. Two or three times the stadium cost means two or three times the cash issue.
I definitely don’t think the league will kill off RBNY. They want 2 NY area teams more than anyone. I actually think this could be beneficial to both clubs (those comparing it to Chivas/Galaxy have no clue what they’re talking about).
As for the DP talk, while I don’t see Neymar coming anywhere close to MLS within the next decade, I could absolutely see Kaka being that big DP target for RBNY.
Neymar? I’ll believe that when I see it.
More like Kaka.
Yeah but people there are actually interested in attending MLS matches.
25,000 is too small! Sounders get 40,000 per game…
Or maybe NY2 will not be the current Cosmos group. Wouldn’t that be hilarious.
garber isnt going to kill off 1st NY team (red bulls). friend of friend w/inside knowledge says the Don has committed to RB a “level 1 DP signing” when 2nd NY team enters the fray. This can only be interpreted as Neymar or something like that…which is the fair thing to do given that RB spent 250mil
It’s a 25 minute ride on the PATH from WTC or 33rd St. to Harrison. Yes, if you live out in the far reaches of Queens or Brooklyn it’s a bit of a haul to get to RBA, but people make it sound like it’s impossible. I drive to/from every home game from an hour and a half away, so I have no sympathy with people who need to have a team in their own back yard.
What a waste. Other than a few fanboys who spend their time coming up with excuses not to come to RBA, there is not much of a market for this team.
Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not.
Relevant post either way, as the Sounders play the Whitecaps for the 127th time in front of 60k + this week.
Hopefully it is not relevant, while making you look like a fool.
Yeah that and $100 million entry fee.
It is good for MLS, so I am not against it, just hope that the big money doesn’t distract MLS’ focus from the huge growth elsewhere.
Sorry. I should have read this before posting. CG
That’s a shortsighted view. Today you may (or may not be) right. In the long run, it’s not valid.
I don’t like it anymore than it seems you do, but the league is making business decisions, not passion decisions.
I think listing cities you believe DO support 2 teams begs the question of whether NY WILL support that many. It’s an argument — and a pretty bare one since square miles have nothing to do with soccer fandom — disguised as a factual comparison.
Shanghai is one of the most massive cities in the world and it has 2 teams with combined Chinese Super League 2011 attendance of 20K. Sheer size creates a potential but not necessarily actualized market.
Who are you counting as Paris 2, I’m only aware of PSG.
And one thing no one seems to be considering is how the heck a $300 million stadium gets paid off. Red Bull is a special but already expensive (albeit cheaper) case because they throw around money insanely as something like free advertising for the brand. Want to spend tens of millions to buy F1 titles to advertise energy drinks? Have at it. Ditto soccer. But what if someone wants to make a profit and not just have one big set of billboards they’ve paid to use ad infinitum?
I mean, take Red Bull ticket prices and then factor in this would be 50% more expensive a playpen and need to be paid for on a more profit-minded, rather than advertising budget, basis. How expensive would the seats be, and isn’t this flipside of NYC real estate, the carrying cost, the reason most NY sports teams flee cross-river?
So, let’s say people go to Hofstra for $10 a pop, will they go to the big league park for $50? At some point aren’t you charging enough where you re-create the “I am a Europhile who could pay this to watch Chelsea or Brazil in the Meadowlands, and what I will get is MLS” snobbery issue, anyway?
At minimum, I think MLS should tell Cosmos, fill Shuart (Hostra) for 2 years without fail as a minor league team, and then I’ll take you seriously and we’ll finance a NY MLS stadium, and give an expansion side. That’s close to what Montreal used to do in the pre-expanded Saputo. You could even tell the fans this is the “bet.” You want MLS soccer, earn it. That would cover everyone’s interests and risks, and not make this such an “if you build it, he will come” exercise in faith.
The scene is actually set for such a “test,” MLS would just have to hand it to the student.
$300 million is alot of cash that can re-invested in the league as a whole or to help existing teams. It seems to me that they could get a site much cheaper in another potential market like Orlando or San Antonoio.
You are obviously underestimating the value of having big tv markets within the league. Its not about how much espn paid for the current deal, but what it will become after 2014 when the deal is over with.
NBC & ESPN want to cater to the casual fan and the more games they broadcast with teams named NY or LA or CHI or Seattle or Houston, the better ratings they get.
This is why the MLS wants another team in NY. The gate & the fan commute is not a big issue to the league.
as a DC fan, this really makes me mad.
25K for a stadium is WAY too small and anyone but the Cosmos would be a huge letdown for pretty much everyone in the league
the only issue now is $. not land.
this is what angers me the most. you have MLS threatening DC United about moving them and now these suits want to give $300M to a team that doesn’t even exist?! DCU has brought so much to MLS, it’s a complete slap in the face.
absolutely ridiculous and goes to show they don’t care about anything else right now other than getting NY another team.
As if you needed another reason other than Chivas brand that it was stupid to put 2 teams in LA…. NYC will be fine.
Cities with 2 major teams (# people per mile)
——–
LA : 8,092/sq mi
Manchester: 11,260/sq mi
Milan: 19,000/sq mi
NYC: 27,243.06/sq mi
Paris: 54,900 /sq mi
So why are the Nets moving and why can’t the Devils draw large crowds? Are you saying there’s no passion for hockey and basketball in the NY area?
Yes – a stadium in Manhattan would sell out every game. It’s the same problem with the Nets and Devils. Then Nets had to move. You can’t accuse NYers of not being passionate about basketball and hockey, MSG sells out every night. It’s not about passion, it’s about location.
bingo
The lesson of NASL is do not let the ability to pay an expansion fee, or the ability to receive that expansion fee, dictate the expansion process. NASL owners would take their cut of each subsequent expansion fee and get bigger and bigger until it collapsed under its own weight. You only get one expansion fee but the franchises, yours and theirs, have to keep alive after that.
That MLS might like tens if not hundreds of millions in expansion cash, and that someonemight have the wherewithal to pay it, doesn’t mean either side can deliver an effective franchise that draws fans.
You can’t let the tail wag the dog.
I live in downtown Brooklyn. It is a 60 minute trip door-to-door. Couldn’t be easier.
Little doubt about that. I think it would be good for the league if that happens.
No disrespect to Salt Lake City (I’ve never been there but I’ve heard great things about it) but SLC is no NYC. There is a reason New York is nicknamed “the city that never sleeps”. With all of the entertainment options the city has to offer, people are not going to make extraordinary efforts to see a MLS team if it’s going to take 3 hours of travel time round trip. New York is unlike any other city on the planet (which is a reason why I love the place) so it’s just not a fair comparison. It would be one thing if RBNY had Real Madrid type talent, but that’s certainly not the case. Until the Red Bulls are a consistent winner, they are going to struggle with their attendance being based out of New Jersey.
Our TV deals are not big enough where we should treat them like a big factor. ESPN pays like $7-8 million for MLS. I’m not sure how much NBC Sports or the others pay, but surely they’re not breaking their banks. ESPN’s figure comes out to less than $500K per franchise, and the franchises may not get to just divvy the whole deal. That’s a fraction of one team’s salary cap.
So I have difficulty buying the whole TV market thing. This is not NFL-level telecasting, or even MLB or NBA.
Until TV ratings and revenues actually go up, the more material financial consideration is probably butts in seats paying dollars for tickets and jerseys, followed by sponsorships. NY might be a decent sponsorship location if fans responded but whether fans will respond is the $300 million question.
here’s a problem, we can all like & dislike where the next team is but guess what it takes someone w/millions to make that decision. Let’s get over ourselves. It’s their$$, just maybe the investors w/$$ wants NYC, how about that?
I’d be careful about “awful,” Dallas and C-bus and NE sometimes dip down to 8-9K. Those 2 teams plus Chivas are in that same 12-13K range this season as Montreal if you drop out the Olympic Stadium games. More prevalent than you’re granting. Montreal is not amazing or a resounding success but it’s a solid fanbase for a lousy team.
Bluntly, it’s amazing a team like TFC gets people to show up week after week at decent numbers with how they’ve historically performed. That’s lightning in a bottle but in most other cities the attendance is more elastic to performance, ie, people will show up as empty seats if you’re un-competitive long enough.
I think Montreal’s CCL and Olympic Stadium history suggests a successful Impact field product will garner higher attendance. Now that attendance will wax and wane relative to winning, but outside Seattle and Toronto I think that’s true of most teams. I don’t think the Olympic Stadium attendance should be completely discounted because I think it hints at future possibility.
+1
Thanks for explaining it. I just think it’s hard for people who are not familiar with NYC to comprehend just how difficult it can be to get to Harrison, NJ. If it was as simple as a 20 minute PATH ride then every game would be sold out.
The Cosmos current Ownership is the team going into MLS,they stay in the NASL is only one year.
Ding! Correct, for those “it’s a 20 minute PATH ride”, it is much longer than that from anywhere except lower manhattan. From Brooklyn, it is easily at least 90 minutes each way with weekend subway closings, waiting for PATH trains, the “dump-off” at Journal Square (for those who don’t know, you push through a mass of humanity for ~10-15 minutes to get into the PATH station, then push onto a train, which takes you one station and then goes out of service)…it is not accessible. The PATH is a joke.
By the end of the season, I would start seeing if it was possible to do it in less than 90 minutes with excellent connections, etc…and it’s not. Something is always screwed up and you end up waiting.
Now, a stadium in Queens is also not centrally located, but it is on an MTA subway line – which already makes it an easier commute for anyone who lives in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, etc.
Im not sure why they want a second team in NY that will just be like the Red Bulls. The MLS really needs to tap into the Twin Cities area, basically another Portland but in the Midwest.
Look, some people are determined to find excuses why they won’t attend NYRB games. RBA is just as far from midtown as Yankee stadium and certainly if you are anywhere near a PATH station in lower Manhattan, RBA is closer. Getting a path train back to the city is ridiculous (although it doesn’t take an hour) but they are beginning renovations on the Harrison path station which (someday at least) should significantly improve that situation.
Bottom line – this is a terrible idea. The support isn’t there. These franchises will be east coast versions of Chivas USA within 5 years.
I’m not necessarily for or against NY2, but this argument isn’t really relevant. It’s great that Montreal and the PNW had what they had before joining MLS, but not having that doesn’t dictate future attendance at professional games. If you need examples of that, just look at the original MLS franchises over the life of the league and go back and count how many of them had vibrant minor league attendance (or even teams). Or try MLB… does not packing a 3500-seat minor league baseball “stadium” mean that 35K won’t show up for 162 games every summer? No.
Somebody above said it was about TV markets. As unfortunate and un-cool as it is to declare, they are correct to a large degree. If you don’t have a large TV market, you’d better have A LOT of something else. I believe in the end, this is where St. Louis continually falls apart.
What’s the big deal? The team draws as much or more than most MLS teams and the TV money is probably better than all but LAG, and the fans sing the whole game.
So, maybe there’s nothing else to do closer to you. I have a million other things to do that are much closer and easier to get to. It’s not an excuse – it’s a fact. If you want to live some place with nothing close by, that you have to drive everywhere, that’s great for you, but I like to be able to walk outside, hop on my bike for 15 minutes, and see a band or kayak on the river or play some pickup soccer or catch a Yankee game.
Its about the TV market, not the gate. The MLS is more concerned about another NY team that they can put on TV.
They won’t go to Flushing either. Hey, if these owners want to spend $300 million on soccer in NY that is a great thing. But NY2 won’t be a special thing. Just another team in the league. NYers can’t be bothered to see Henry play at a soccer palace like RBA. They won’t give strong support to NY2.
After all, where did Pele & his Cosmos play most of their games? NEW JERSEY!
The flaw in everyone’s logic is that, as New Yorkers, we are accustomed to having everything close by. The whole (expletive) reason I pay an absurd amount of money to live here is that there’s a lot of fun stuff to do really, really close by. I make my trips to NYRB arena every year because I love the sport, but when I can get to a Yankee game or a free concert in Central Park in 1/10th the amount of time and hassle, which do you think I’m going to do?
b/c, as BSU stated, it’s not a 20 minute PATH ride. For me – on a weekend, from the Upper East Side, with all the subway closings and delays that are rampant on weekends, it’s at least 90 minutes (1h 27mins according to hopstop – that’s w/out delays) there and much more on the way back, since you have to wait an hour or so to get a PATH train back. When we go, we make plans to eat in Newark afterwards until the lines clear out. It’s a huge deal to get a couple friends together to clear their whole day for it. Also – stubhub doesn’t deliver tix to the stadium, so you have to wander around Newark looking for some hotel 30 minutes walk from Red Bull Arena to pick up your tix. Conversely, it’s a 15 min. trip to Yankee Stadium that can be arranged in a moment’s notice.
It’s still going to be an hour for me to the Queens Stadium, so it’s not that easy either, but there won’t be the huge wait for the PATH after the game.
I guess that’s really what I’m asking – why hasn’t the RB been more successful with the fans? What are they doing wrong?
I’m out here on the other coast so don’t have any sense of what they are doing other than spending money on marquee players and putting a reasonable team on the field, yet when I see their highlights there are way too many empty seats.
Is it all bad stadium placement? I’ll admit that a downtown stadium here in Seattle is mighty nice.