Photo by Anne-Marie Sorvin/USA Today Sports
By RYAN TOLMICH
The start was a bit frantic, but Toronto FC got the three points they so desparately desired due to a pair of finishes from their new forward.
Jozy Altidore scored on either side of halftime and was joined on the score sheet by Robbie Findley, canceling out Octavio Rivero’s opener as TFC topped the Vancouver Whitecaps, 3-1, Saturday at BC Place.
Altidore provided his first finish in MLS since leaving the New York Red Bulls in 2008, in the 32nd minute on an assist from fellow offseason signing Sebastian Giovinco.
After displaying a bit of patience to make the Whitecaps chase, the ball found its way to the Italian, who danced around a defender before sliding a through ball into the path of a cutting Altidore. The U.S. Men’s National Team forward took a touch to round goalkeeper David Ousted before slipping the ball into the net for the equalizing goal.
Toronto FC proceeded to take the lead less than 15 minutes into the second half, as Findley latched onto the end of a cross from Justin Morrow to push the scoreline to 2-1.
Morrow darted up the left side before receiving the ball and calmly crossing into the center of the box. A weaving run between the Whitecaps defense saw Findley rewarded, as the forward popped it right into the back of the net to secure the three points.
Altidore added his second in stoppage time following a foul by centerback Pa-Modou Kah that resulted in a penalty. The forward took the penalty kick himself, chipping the keeper to secure the 3-1 victory.
Despite the scoreline, the Whitecaps proved to be the dominant side throughout the first half, as the combination of Kekuta Manneh and Rivero gave TFC fits due to the visitor’s repeated use of a high back line.
Rivero’s day started with calamity, as the young forward bumbled through missing a wide open net in the ninth minute, but the forward atoned just eleven minutes later, as the Uruguayan got on the end of a long ball from Pa Modou Kah before firing past goalkeeper Joe Bendik to open the scoring.
That goal didn’t prove to be enough, however as TFC’s blitz from Altidore and Findley. TFC hit the road again March 14 to take on the Columbus Crew, while the Whitecaps also travel to take on the Chicago Fire that very same day.
Altidore struggled in the Premier League. He will not be the first really good player to do that and will not be the last. We can be critical of Altidore’s time at Sunderland, but if you look at the stats, nobody is scoring on that team so it doesn’t completely come down to him.
I thought his movement was solid last night. The first goal left him with a bit to do and he did it quite well considering how much difficulty the players were having on the artificial pitch. In the second half he did an excellent job of holding up balls and moving it onwards.
It’s early days obviously. I made the mistake last year of saying Defoe would bag 20+ after watching the way he shredded the Sounders in the opener. TFC have a long way to go. There is a good argument to be made though that with the core midfield Toronto has with Giovinco, Bradley and Cheyrou providing some creativity and movement, Altidore will have his chances.
+1
Diego Valado, one of the Univision commentators spoke about Jozy during one of the recent USMNT friendlies. The gist of it, “……recently arrived from Europe, well everyone knows about his struggles at Sunderland, but seeing him play today he looks phenomenal. He has really put in a lot of hard work to improve his skill set, physically he is in excellent shape, his body is strong and well conditioned, he looks like a Bull. He is well varnished – I think he is going to do very well in MLS.”
He hasn’t hit his ceiling yet. He is going to continue to improve as a professional and as a USMNT international. Be patient. Observe.
TomG of course ur totally correct, the stunning ball to Jozy that resulted in the PK was unmentionable. Jozy is solely responsible.
You’re not very bright are you timD? TomG clearly said “No one said it was the Jozy show and not a team effort. Not sure why you are imagining things like that in your head.”
after he clearly explained how the team WAS involved yet Jozy still made the goals happen. 1st goal, great pass by Gio, great run by Jozy, great dribble around gk by Jozy. 2nd goal, great lobbed ball, great chest down by jozy then he held off his defender to draw the pk, then made the pk. clearly it was a team effort so why exactly are you arguing with no one???…..
Congrats to Jozy. Glad to see him on a team where he can be used and appreciated instead of ridiculed, underserved and underused.
Easily see him getting 20+ goals this season.
For all the haters out there, you’re an idiot if you really thought Jozy was trash. Look at his international record scoring on some of the best defenses in the world.
I cannot wait to see TFC in Columbus next weekend
Let’s not throw Jozy a party yet. A PK should be a gimme 90% of the time, so I don’t give him too much credit for that goal. The first goal was set up perfectly by Giovinco working some magic and slotting thru a perfect pass. This was a team effort, not the Jozy show. Great job TFC
Come on,….they were nice finishes. Good for him and Toronto FC.
Great pass, but the anticipatory run by Altidore was great as well. I’ve seen that from him in the past when he looks engaged, but all too often he doesn’t display the motivation to make those runs.
Which Paul are you 🙂 ?
I realized a couple months ago that there 2 of you using the same handle. One that is newer and one that has been on for few years that complains when the newer Paul writes with the same name 🙂
Jozy DREW the penalty so he’s solely responsible for that goal. You also make the first goal sound like it was a tap in which it wasn’t. Great pass by Gio, but Jozy still had work to do. Most players shoot that first touch and it’s saved. Nice cool finish by Jozy to touch the ball away from the keeper, round him and finish all in tight quarters.
No one said it was the Jozy show and not a team effort. Not sure why you are imagining things like that in your head.
Wasn’t he the one who got fouled inside the box to get the PK?
I think he should get full credit. it might not have been the smartest foul, but Jozy did seem to have a reasonable to get a shot off if he had not been fouled.
Before each goal, Jozy had the ball actually passed to him while he was going forward, rather than checking back to get the ball, that is something that happened hardly ever at Sunderland.
Also an important piece Robin Fraser, a very good tactician is on the coaching staff. He always had respect from Henry for his tactics.
You heard it here first – Jozy will be lucky to get two goal in the first 15 games of the season. He’ll struggle. He probably lose his place for a bit at some point in the season. lol. well, by the look of things I was way off. glad I was wrong. (if he keeps it up). : )
I figured he was good for 20+ goals, easily.
When Jozy feels appreciated and gets service, he scores. A lot.
Starve him of service and affection, he wilts.
The knock you can make on Altidore – and Klinsmann gets this – is that he’s a bit of a hothouse flower who needs a lot of love. He’s not a Dempsey, who responds to getting benched by getting angrier and more truculent. But when Altidore is on, he’s pretty much a carbon-copy clone of Lukaku, and it amazes me people can’t see it or devalue it somehow because he’s ‘Merican. (We really do have a nation-wide inferiority complex about our soccer.)
At Toronto he now has Bradley and now Giovinco feeding him and a management that’s invested a bunch of money in him; he’ll get his service, and he’ll get his love…and he’ll be fine.
while i agree mostly overall with your comment Jozy is NOT a “carbon-copy of Lukaku”…….. different skill sets. just because they’re both big and black doesn’t make them similar, lol……
Lukaku has better pace with the ball, better first touch, and better acceleration.
Look, Jozy is one of my favorite players on the NT (most likely because he wanted to meet me after one of my concerts in LA and he was a cool, nice guy which i respect) but if somehow we could trade Jozy for Lukaku on the USMNT i would do that in a heart beat.
Lukaku is 21 years old
He already has 33 goals in 73 games for Anderlecht.
He also has 39 goals in 103 games for Chelsea, West Brom and Everton all while in the EPL.
I don’t see the comparison to Jozy
bingo
Despite the good win and a good second half, TFC’s defense was less organized than a Libertarian national convention. Manneh was running through them like they were standing still. They had no idea how to hold a line. They were scary, scary bad. If Vancouver could finish or make a final pass, they would have had 5 goals. They seemed to put it together more in the 2nd half. In the first half, they were also turning the ball over like crazy. Eventually, though, the lesser lights on the side stopped trying to be clever and just got the ball to Bradley, Giovinco, Cheyrou, and Altidore. Those four are extremely good on the ball and played as if they were on another level than anyone else on the pitch. Cheyrou was a huge acquisition. He and Bradley could form an incredible partnership in midfield. They dominated the 2nd half together. I don’t think Bradley made a single misstep on the ball and he was everywhere. Jozy didn’t see all that many touches but he was brutally efficient. You could tell Kah was not used to going up against someone of Jozy’s size, strength and speed. On the penalty draw, Jozy brought the ball down perfectly to shield from Kah and Kah attempted to muscle him off the ball like he typically does but instead, he was the one who went down as Jozy basically ran right through the challenge, forcing Kah to scissor his legs out in a desperate attempt to find the ball but just wound up tangling his legs in Jozy’s. We really don’t have any big, strong, fast, skilled guys like Jozy in MLS. It could take a while for defenders to adapt to him.
lol, having known quite a few liberians, i misread your first sentence. still works, though. (i don’t think i know any libertarians.)
Ha. Maybe so. Probably wouldn’t work if read as Librarians, though. I’d imagine they’re super organized, dewey decimal reading mofos.
I know quite a few Libertarians. I’m guessing TomG does as well, lol.
If Osorio doesn’t hold the ball and then feed it to Giovinco then TFC’S first goal doesn’t happen. Oso is no lesser light, and got the better of Tiebert several times.
As for the poor defending in the first half, TFC’s back line has maybe played 2 games together max, and it was more the highline they were playing that got them into trouble more than anything, once they adjusted they were able to settle the game down defensively, as seen in the second half when Vancouver attack all but disappeared with the exception of a few half chances.
Oso was downright awful for most of the first half. At one point he had 3 unforced turnovers in a 2 minute span, all of them in bad areas. He was definitely one of the ones trying to do too much. I’m not saying he’s a bad player, but his resume is nowhere near those other guys and he showed it on the field last night. I was literally talking to my TV, saying, “Who the heck is 21 and why is giving the ball away every time he touches it?” From his resume, from last night and from what I’ve seen in the past, he should be a role player on that team. He can make good, smart plays in the context of the offense, but those guys are on a completely different level and he should leave most of the heavy lifting to them when they’re on the field. We’ll see how things go with the next few matches, but to me, they looked much better when Oso was just playing safe and getting the ball to the guys who are better with the ball in traffic like MB and Cheyrou.
the Big DAWG BITES BACK, Jozy, Jozy, Jozy!
Altidore to ManU!
cue the Jozy anti-apologists……..
It’s easy for Antiscore to score in MLS…its worse than playing in the Eredivisie!
right on cue; keep’em comin’………….
It’s still early.
lol yea that was my hidden point. its too early to celebrate just as its too early to hate. for example, when people bring up Defoe’s 2 goals in 8 league matches so far for Sunderland as proof that Jozy’s terrible when they’re just trying to fit their own narrative.
DLOA,
All this back and forth over Jozy is pointless.
Jozy has been a very good forward for the USMNT but he has never been as important or as good a player as someone like Landon, Dempsey, Jones or Bradley for example. Jozy has always promised more than he has actually delivered.
If you doubt that note that if you throw out his first year, Clint, who by comparison has always been spit upon by the SBI fan base, managed to average 42 appearances and about 12 goals per season for Fulham. Everyone agrees that
Sunderland were never great during Jozy’s time but Fulham at times were equally pathetic and Clint was not a forward. mostly playing on the left side of midfield.
Yet, Clint managed to make the most of the situation, something Jozy has done only in Holland and with the US.
Clint is mentally tougher than Jozy and he is more selfish, but regardless, the fact remains that Clint took his shot and became a regular and a reliable EPL goal scorer at a club with a modest level of supporting talent, something Jozy could not approach accomplishing.
.
Jozy’s European adventures have revealed him to be of lesser quality than Clint , Mikey, Jones or Dolo. As a pure forward he has never been in the McBride or Wynalda class.
As an international he has been a good servant , a reasonably steady, slightly above average sort, a B- to C- kind of player. This is acceptable for now. After all, look at how well Costa Rica did with a forward of lesser productivity and an equal level of underachievement in the flashy Joel Campbell.
If you think about the current batch of first choice CONCACAF forwards. Altidore,Chicharito and Campbell have all had their issues in Europe.
The USMNT is better off with Jozy than without him but the fact that he clearly remains the best the US has available and a comparatively viable international forward is an indictment of two things:
The thin US talent pool and the fact that top class forwards, guys like Lewandoski , Suarez , Aguero or the pre-injury Falcao, are very few and far between in general.
Surely there are more interesting topics than Jozy and his former club, a team that has never been remotely attractive Jozy or not?.In fact I’m probably one of the few who regrets that Di Canio was not allowed to finish out his year. At the end of the day that wack job might actually have put together an interesting ,attractive side and maybe made something out of Jozy..
It’s just been gone over endlessly at this point. Everyone knows he can score goals if you get him the ball in or around the box. He’s not going to run in behind defenders and blow by anyone one on one. If his skill set is what you need then he has his use.
GW- well thought out lecture there but what did i say to make you think i disagree with anything you said? I’ve stated this overall point before and ill state it again: Jozy is far from world class; but he is also far from a terrible player. i choose to comment here to ridicule the jozy haters for hyperbole when they claim he’s terrible. today my initial post “cue the jozy anti-apologists” was really poking fun at the jozy haters who no matter what happens will find a negative to say a bout jozy– and they did. sure i may come off as a jozy fanboy, yet all I’m trying to do is input a little reality into peoples opinions. sure Jozy was not a success in the EPL but there are better explanations than “he’s terrible” such as their midfield lacking creativity etc, to add, some of those explanations involve jozy’s skill set and talent level as well. so while i have never compared him to the top tier of players i just find humor in poking at ignorant jozy haters and their ridiculous hyperbole
cheers
Your long-winded response should have been more succinct. Jozy is a player that fits only in certain styles. He needs service. We have seen that over and over again. He is not a poacher type; he actually interplays well with other attacking players.
Sunderland was not his fit. There actually 8 teams that actually play his style in EPL, but he is only good enough to make 2 or 3 teams. There are more teams who play that style which he is good enough to make the squad in Ligue 1 or Bundesliga which is where I wanted him to go 1.5 years ago when Sunderland wanted to buy him (that and I did not like Di Canio).
Last, let’s stop this garbage that Wynalda and McBride were that much better than Jozy. I liked Wynalda. He was my favorite player on that squad of the mid-90’s, but he was a hot head and not as good as Jozy is at the same age (Jozy just turned a 25 a few 4 months ago). Wynalda was MUCH better than McBride at the same age. McBride had failed to make a dent at Wolfsburg when they were a 2nd Bundesliga side. People here slight Bobby Wood, but he has already done more McBride ever did at the 2nd Bundesliga and he’s younger.
Players will continue to improve the more they play (unless their bodies betray them). Jozy will continue to improve and I think is ceiling is higher. That being said, if he is the best forward the USMNT has, we will never be a world beater. The ugly truth is USMNT has NEVER had great forwards. Not one borderline world class one. We rarely produce solid attacking players (LD and CD are an exception). Mexico does a much better job and has actually had a world class forward (Hugo Sanchez).
Anthony,
“Your long-winded response should have been more succinct. “
Why? There are nuances there.
You used 310 words to my 436. Your response was 29% shorter but not dramatically so.
You take for granted that Jozy playing and scoring more for TFC means he will improve as a player.
First of all, “continued improvement” is not a given.
Second of all what does “improvement” mean? Getting back to his AZ form? If so, that would be getting back to what he was at his best, not improvement. His best wasn’t good enough to do well at Sunderland.
Everyone talks about “bad fit”, “no service”, “not his style”, “not a poacher type” as indictments of the team and there is something to that but ask yourself this, isn’t this a two way street?
Doesn’t Jozy have to give something back in return for all this?
In Jozy’s early Sunderland games there were not a lot of chances. Those he did get he was either unlucky with or he just blew them. If he makes those then maybe things start to change. But he did not and that was on him, no one else.
Then he started to hang his head. By the time he left you could see he was just finished. I remember Poyet giving Jozy a League Cup start against some weak team to get him going and then being upset because Jozy did nothing with that start.
This is the EPL. The expectations are very high. If you get one chance, be it a whole, a half or a quarter chance in a game, you are expected to score. They will not give you many chances to make your case.
“Last, let’s stop this garbage that Wynalda and McBride were that much better than Jozy.”
Wynalda went to the Bundesliga, scored 8 goals and was named newcomer of the year. He has scored in the World Cup.
McBride was a success in the EPL and he scored in the World Cup.
Jozy has yet to do any of these things. Eric and Brian were not great international players but they were better than Jozy, mostly because, like Clint, they seemed to be mentally tougher than Jozy because they came through in tough times.
That toughness, or lack thereof, remains Jozy’s biggest question mark in terms of whether he will ever attain his high ceiling.
I think we can all agree that Altidore has yet to live up to the expectations set for him. His EPL time was disappointing, and he has to live with that record. But it seems a bit unfair to limit the evaluation of Altidore’s career to his failure in England, and a subjective analysis of his psyche, as being “mentally weak.”
Yes. I am a Jozy fan boy. But, certainly, a discussion of the team’s playing style is relevant to assessing his career. Successful coaches adjust the team’s playing style to the talents of his players. Its clear that Poyet has yet to do so, even though he’s acknowledged that some teams are not a good match to a player’s talents (he was analogizing Altidore’s scoring struggles to his own). Read any discussion of Sunderland’s current scoring woes, and the common thread is that their forwards are starved of service, and are not being used in positions that match their strengths (Wickham in particular). Fletcher has 4 goals, Wickham has 3, Defoe has 2 and Graham 0. Meanwhile, in his first game after leaving Sunderland, Altidore scored for the US. In his first MLS game (away from Sunderland) he scored again. The common thread between both goals? He received the ball at his feet, facing goal, within the penalty box, something that rarely happened at Sunderland (and still doesn’t).
As to the mental toughness argument, comparing Altidore unfavorably to McBride and Wynalda seems a bit harsh. The Wynalda argument is particularly weak, as Altidore has already eclipsed Wynalda’s career club goal total. In addition, Wynalda entire European career consisted of 4 years in Germany, two of which were in the second division (25 goals in 90 apps). Not exactly top flight football. Jozy has 60 goals in 202 European top flight leagues.
McBride was 32 by the time he started at Fulham, so comparing his “mental toughness” at that stage to that of a 23/24 year old is simply ridiculous. Dempsey was 23, when he arrived at Fulham, a team which had two established American veterans, Bocanegra and McBride. McBride was captain and a fan favorite. I’m sure that made the transition a bit easier for Dempsey (don’t let the tats and the rapping fool you). He didn’t really hit his goal scoring stride until age 27 (when he hit double digits for the first time). Even still, Altidore’s 2nd AZ campaign still remains the most prolific for an American. He showed some mental toughness there after his first year, he was benched because of poor training habits, so he deserves at least some credit there. The World Cup goal arguments are weak because he’s only played in one and missed the other through injury.
Bradley is also open to the “mental toughness” argument as he failed to ride out tough times at Villa, Gladbach and Roma. Singling out Altidore seems strange especially given he and Bradley are now at the same club.
As far as his national team importance, he was the leading goal scorer during the 2010 qualifying campaign and shared 2nd place honors with EJ in 2014. Let’s also not forget he was 2013 USMNT player of the year, something that not everyone earns. So lets give the guy some credit where its due.
+1
very well put Nate
Nate
“I think we can all agree that Altidore has yet to live up to the expectations set for him. His EPL time was disappointing, and he has to live with that record. But it seems a bit unfair to limit the evaluation of Altidore’s career to his failure in England, and a subjective analysis of his psyche, as being “mentally weak.”
Unfair ? Since he left MLS he has had success only with AZ and the USMNT.
How do you propose to evaluate his time with Villareal and the various loans at Xerez, Hull and Turkey? They struck me as largely wastes of time and anonymous failures. I assume most of us did not get to see him play much during his time in Spain and during his various loan stints. Did you? .
If you are going to discuss Jozy as a player since leaving MLS you are left basically with his US resume and his time in Holland and at Sunderland. He obviously learned how to be a good striker at AZ but a lot of the good will he produced from his time there was flushed away by the realization that he was unable to translate even the bare basics of his form at AZ to a higher club level.
“Yes. I am a Jozy fan boy. But, certainly, a discussion of the team’s playing style is relevant to assessing his career. Successful coaches adjust the team’s playing style to the talents of his players. Its clear that Poyet has yet to do so, even though he’s acknowledged that some teams are not a good match to a player’s talents (he was analogizing Altidore’s scoring struggles to his own). Read any discussion of Sunderland’s current scoring woes, and the common thread is that their forwards are starved of service, and are not being used in positions that match their strengths (Wickham in particular). Fletcher has 4 goals, Wickham has 3, Defoe has 2 and Graham 0. Meanwhile, in his first game after leaving Sunderland, Altidore scored for the US. In his first MLS game (away from Sunderland) he scored again. The common thread between both goals? He received the ball at his feet, facing goal, within the penalty box, something that rarely happened at Sunderland (and still doesn’t)”
You are missing the point.
“Successful coaches adjust the team’s playing style to the talents of his players”
In a perfect world sure they do but there are ten other guys on the field. There are only so many adjustments you can make for an individual player before it is simpler to replace that one guy instead of the other ten.
Sunderland weren’t necessarily asking Jozy to score 15 -20 goals a season. But it was reasonable for them to expect him to make the most of their system. And in those terms, Jozy did the worst job of the forwards who were there. That first season Jozy had 38 league appearances, 1 goal. Fletcher had 20 league appearances and 3 goals and Wickham had 15 league appearances and 5 goals.
No one anywhere thinks Fletcher and Wickham are top flight EPL level strikers. So if Jozy, who was clearly given plenty of chances can’t outperform them in a situation where expectations are comparatively low, what does that say about Jozy?
Jozy has been given the credit he is due. He is currently the best striker available for the USMNT. They are better off with him than without him. He was an excellent investment for AZ and he has done a very good job for the USMNT.
But he has yet to prove himself better than McBride or Wynalda, not that it matters. McBride got old and Eric got hurt so those guys did not return from Europe as failures. Jozy did.
Hopefully he will do well at TFC and rehabilitate his career. And if he does that it makes the USMNT stronger which is all I really care about. But it is unrealistic to expect much more than what we have already seen from Jozy, who in international terms is basically a journeyman
Jozy is “only” 25 but in pro soccer terms he is in the middle ages of his career and will still have to live down the embarrassment of being unable to approach being able to outperform two non entities in Fletcher and Wickham when it mattered.
GW, +1, interestingly i mostly agree. my only thing is, using that analysis it wouldn’t be crazy to then delve into the specifics of team style, coaching changes, etc to merely analyze the “why” of his failure there. same as any of his other european stints. yet any time some one does that they are accused of being an “apologist” (admit tingly not always or even often by you). but i agree, i hope he does well at TFC. I just wish others could understand the difference between liking a player and highly rating a player, lol. i rate Jozy fairly, not top class, not terrible; he is what he is. I do, however choose to cheer for him for aforementioned reasons and hope he does well regardless of how good he was in the EPL 🙂
cheers as always
I am not a huge Jozy fan because I like forwards with light touches and who can create. However, he is not as “terrible” as people make him out to be. In the grand scheme, he is solid pro, but not great pro.
2nd, I really do not understand the argument with Wynalda and McBride. Any objective observation of McBride would arrive at the conclusion that McBride was not nearly as good a player as Jozy at 25. He washed out of Bundesliga 2 at the same age that Jozy was tearing up the Eredivisie. Additionally, everyone knows loans are hard to judge because unless there’s an option to buy, there is very little incentive to play and develop a player. Jozy had a better career goal/game average in MLS at 16/17 than McBride had in the MLS 24-31. Jozy has a better goals/game average than McBride has with the USMNT. Finally, to say that Jozy won’t keep improving when McBride did is disingenuous. Jozy should have scored 5/6 goals for that horrible team. He failed by not doing so, but he landed in a situation that was incredibly hostile towards and they expected a lot from the get go. McBride landed in a better situation. Jozy (whether people like to admit it or not) is better in this stage than McBride,
Wynalda, is an interesting story because I enjoyed watching him play and he could have been a real player, but he though that he was better than he was and then injuries killed it.
Edmondo,
I cite the entirety of McBride and Eric’s careers as club benchmarks for Jozy because they are the best US forwards to date, assuming you are not counting LD and Clint as forwards which I ‘m really not doing.
Jozy came back from European club circuit as a failure and those two did not.
It is possible that Jozy will revive his career and work his way back to Europe and remove the heavy stench his embarrassing failure at Sunderland caused. And then maybe he leads to US the new heights in Russia in 2018 assuming we haven’t gone to war with Russia yet.
Then maybe he can say he has had a better club career than those two. But I’m not counting on it like you are.
I’d be happy to be wrong but I don’t think that is likely.
Now that he is back home he should play better.
However, I see no reason to think that he will get any better than he was at AZ, in my view his professional peak. And in order to do that TFC had to basically build a team around him.
That tells me that if you are not already set up a certain way then if you buy Jozy you will have to do what TFC did , build around him.
So, Edmondo, is Jozy’s upside so high that a bigger club than TFC, wherever they are, will want to do that?
Where is the evidence that this will work with Jozy at a club level higher than the Eredivisie or MLS?
What Jozy showed me at Sunderland was that he was a very limited player. What was disturbing about Sunderland was Jozy’s alarming inability to adjust his game to adversity. Connor Wickham is no great player but he made much more out of what was there than the more talented Jozy. This is what raises red flags about Jozy. How do you suppose Wickham would do with TFC or the USMNT?
I wish Jozy well and I hope he spends the rest of his career wrapped in the warm bosom of a club with a protective environment that nurtures him and cherishes him. That way the US will at least have an in form striker to call upon.
Because it is becoming obvious that without that kind of nurturing environment, Jozy will not thrive and the USMNT will likely suffer.
DLOA,
It would be nice if the US had a forward doing well in the EPL but it is not an absolute requirement for success in the World Cup, which is all I care about.
To this day SBI US fans fail to recognize how much credibility Clint Dempsey and his EPL exploits brought to the USMNT . They are much more worried about his indifferent defense, his rumpled , trailer park trash/thug rapper image and his chippy on field behavior.
They would prefer to dump him as soon as possible.
GW, again i 100% agree.
this has to be a record for longest reply chain to a single comment, lol
GW,
I am not jumping down your throat. I actually like discussion like this. The deal is I liked McBride, but sometimes people give him too much credit because they liked his grit. Wynalda actually had more talent (they are almost the same age (Wynalda might be 2/3 years older), but does not get as much credit/love.
To me, we never saw Wynalda’s talent fulfilled due to his ego and injuries. He really could have been a roughly 10-12 goal scorer/season for a mid-table Bundesliga club for 6/7 years, in my opinion.
Jozy and Wynalda are slightly different players. That being said, Jozy is better than McBride (and so was Wynalda). He lost his confidence in a bad situation, but who is to say that would not happen to you at 23/24 when you have an entire stadium raging against you. In fact, McBride never a prolific scorer at Fulham (I used to watch games with my buddy who lived withing walking distance of Craven Cottage). He broke double digits 1 time and scored less than 1 goal every 4 games. McBride did come back as a failure from Europe initially. He then played in MLS for 6/7 years or so before trying his hand again. He improved then he went back.
It is hard to judge this early on. Jozy would will have to play 12 more years to match McBride for longevity. Also, Jozy may not go back to Europe because the current MLS nowadays pays very well, so it maybe hard to judge, but rest assured he is better than McBride.
PS-As you can tell, of the 3, I liked Wynalda the most.
Edmondo,
You’re wrong about McBride but I’m not interested in arguing that point other than to say that, unlike Jozy, McBride tried his best to test himself at the highest level he could possibly reach.
I’d rather Jozy not go back to Europe. I suspect he will do well at TFC and I’d rather he stay there, be happy and play well until the roster for the 2018 World Cup is finalized. I’d rather he not risk upsetting his delicate constitution.
After Russia I don’t care what Jozy does.
My problem with Wynalda is that I saw him the fewest of the three.
Everyone mentions his ego but that is precisely why I rate him higher than Jozy. I got the feeling Eric would rather have died than let a stiff like Wickham outshine him. Jozy seems very stubborn and seems to be very set in his ways. Verbeek had to drop him and humiliate him publicly to get him to finally buy into what AZ wanted out of him. That and the fact that AZ was obviously Jozy’s last chance saloon at the time.
JK had to take a page out of Verbeek’s book to get Jozy’s head back on straight.
I’m not sure exactly what the deal was at Sunderland but once he got in that rut, there seemed to be no getting out of it. You get the feeling that, in the EPL, they have little patience with high maintenance players like Jozy.
Wynalda’s arrogance and outsized ego served him very well during a time when no one took American soccer players seriously.
Actually the first American I can remember with that “ f++k them, I’m not going to worry about them let them worry about me “ attitude was the Great Cletus, Clint Mathis. If he could have just kept his extracurricular activities and his attitude somewhat in check, he ‘d have been up there with McBride and Wynalda.
I think Jozy is very talented but soft. However, soft or not, if JK can get him to continue to get him to produce for the USMNT then I will be 100% behind him through thick and thin as long as it is convenient. Or until Zardes or one of the other guys starts showing better,
I take a day off this page and my auto-notify on my email goes off. My favorite players are CD and Wynalda because I love their chippy arrogance, their “screw you” attitude. Maybe because I was an arrogant athlete growing up.
I like McB, but people forget that just because you were a great servant, that does not mean you were the best player. McB could not hold Wynalda’s jock, talent-wise. Edmondo is right, they were both in college at the same time and Wynalda was another class. I have watched all US forwards over the past 28/30 years.
Additionally, Edmondo is right and you are wrong in that McB went to the Bundesliga 2 (2nd division) and utterly failed (2 goals) at the same age that Jozy went to EPL. They both came back after failing in a league, but McB failed at a lower level. McB had to go back to MLS to improve and then force a transfer to EPL. His MLS goal per game average in his peak-20’s was less than Jozy goal-per game average at the beginning of his career at 17 in the same league quality (there was 2 yr difference in when they played in MLS).
A 17yr old Jozy outplayed a 26-30 McB. Jozy had a horrible year for the nats where he barely scored and still has a better career goal/game than McB. There is difference between 23 trying to prove himself and a 31 yr old who knows himself. Jozy is not the first player to loose confidence and become frustrated in the EPL (look at DiMaria).
I will still care about Jozy after he leaves (if he does after 2018) just like I still cared about other players. “McBride tried his best to test himself at the highest level he could possibly reach.” – like Jozy didn’t???
Anthony,
“McBride tried his best to test himself at the highest level he could possibly reach.” – like Jozy didn’t???”
Sure Jozy did. He tried and failed.Rather ignominiously.
.
To be fair, I neglected to mention elsewhere that Jozy’s return to MLS may not have been entirely his idea. He still had years left on his Sunderland contract so my guess would be that they had more than a little say in where Jozy went. I would think getting Defoe in return was probably the best deal they could work. So while Jozy may have wanted to go to, for example, Lige 1 in France, where he was rumoured to be headed, it is possible Sunderland preferred the Defoe trade option.
McBride kept trying and eventually succeeded. He wasn’t great, Jozy , McBride and Wynalda were/ are not great players, but McBride’s time at Fulham was successful not just because he did well at Fulham but also because, and this is the most important thing, it helped earn respect for US outfield players at a time when there was precious little before.
McBride helped pave the way for American outfield players like Clint.
Jozy’s failure has had the opposite, negative effect but at this point the genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back. The best you can say about it is that it did not help.
You seem to be certain that this return means Jozy will return to the heights, whatever that means.
I hope you are right but I see that as unlikely as I’ve explained elsewhere.
GW–
So I see the discussion is now evaluating a player’s European career as a proxy for respect for U.S. outfield players.
But if that’s the measurement, then of course Jozy can never come out on a positive note. Jozy had 2 and a half seasons in the premier league, one on loan to a horrifically managed side fighting against relegation. The other year and a half on a horrifically managed side fighting relegation. You seem to suggest that Wynalda, Dempsey and McBride, if dropped into the same situation at the same age, would have scored what, 7, 8 goals each, based on what? Your assessment of their mental toughness? There is zero evidence to think that any of them would have done better in that situation.
Let’s start with Wynalda. You simply assert that Wynalda “returned to the US from Europe as a success.” Based on what? 2 seasons in Bundesliga 1? That one “newcomer of the year” award? What is that superior to Altidore’s achievement in Holland? The Bundesliga wasn’t exactly loaded with top flight talent. Of the leading goal scorers that season, only three had any modicum of international success (Yeboah, Chapuisat and Thom). Most of the top European (and German) players were in Italy. So trying to compare Wynalda in Germany in 1992 and 1993 to Altidore in the current Premier League is seriously apples to oranges.
Now, McBride on the other hand, again was THIRTY-TWO YEARS OLD when he first started enjoying success at Fulham. You have repeatedly failed to acknowledge this basic fact. Its just a totally different situation.
Dempsey, again, came into a situation at Fulham in which fans were USED to American players. Eddie Lewis, then Boca and then McBride and THEN Dempsey. And not only that, he benefitted from having established. competent coaches at the helm, Hodgson, Hughes and then Jol. I was not suggesting earlier that coaches should adjust tactics to ONE player, they should be able to analyze the entire team’s skill sets, put a team on the field that maximizes the collective skill set and not use players out of position. The problem with Poyet is he has no idea how to maximize the talents of his own players. Steven Fletcher is a decent striker. Connor Wickham was being praised as the next coming, even prior to the great escape. They are not scoring because Poyet does not know how to get his midfielder’s to get them the ball in areas where they are most dangerous. Its really quite simple and has nothing to do with carving out some special exception for Jozy Altidore.
As others have pointed out, no one out of Dempsey, Wynalda or McBride had the talent Jozy displayed at age 17. None of those guys were competing internationally against the best competition in the youth championships, like Bradley and Jozy did in 2007 (going blow for blow against guys like Jo, Pato, Aguero, DiMaria, Suarez, Alexis, Pique, Chicharito and Dos Santos).
It takes mental toughness for a 16/17 year old to come into MLS and play fearlessly, and then get signed to a top 4 La Liga team. Clearly, Villareal saw the talent in him. That’s more than any other American can say. So, the argument that somehow he is inferior to Wynalda or McBride is ludicrous on its face.
As for Dempsey, I know people like him because he’s got a chip on his shoulder, and raised the US rep in England. That was good. He followed in the footsteps of Harkes, Claudio, Joe-Max, Jones, Lewis, Boca and McBride before him, all of whom represented the US well in terms of outfield players in England. I personally don’t care what the English think of US players. They haven’t produced a quality forward, other than Rooney, since Michael Owen. And before that you had to go to Shearer and Sheringham. Not a tremendous record given they have hosted what is arguably professional soccer’s toughest league since the late 90’s. Their entire national team plays in that league, and what do they have to show for it? The semi finals in 1990.
I could care less what Clint does in England. What’s more important is what he does for the US. And in that category, he’s not nearly been as consistent as he was even at Fulham. Say what you will about Donovan and his “lack of mental toughness” as compared to Clint, but when it came down to big games against our biggest rival, Donovan was there, and the Mexicans hated it. THAT was a first.
Nate
“So I see the discussion is now evaluating a player’s European career as a proxy for respect for U.S. outfield players.But if that’s the measurement, then of course Jozy can never come out on a positive note. Jozy had 2 and a half seasons in the premier league, one on loan to a horrifically managed side fighting against relegation. The other year and a half on a horrifically managed side fighting relegation.”
That’s an excuse for Jozy’s failure?
“You seem to suggest that Wynalda, Dempsey and McBride, if dropped into the same situation at the same age, would have scored what, 7, 8 goals each, based on what? Your assessment of their mental toughness? There is zero evidence to think that any of them would have done better in that situation.”
“That is your suggestion not mine”
“Let’s start with Wynalda. You simply assert that Wynalda “returned to the US from Europe as a success.” Based on what? 2 seasons in Bundesliga 1? That one “newcomer of the year” award? What is that superior to Altidore’s achievement in Holland?”
Actually yes, especially given when it happened. Wynalda was a trailblazer. What awards of that sort or any sort has Jozy ever won? When has the Eredivisie ever been ranked above the BL?
“The Bundesliga wasn’t exactly loaded with top flight talent. Of the leading goal scorers that season, only three had any modicum of international success (Yeboah, Chapuisat and Thom). Most of the top European (and German) players were in Italy. So trying to compare Wynalda in Germany in 1992 and 1993 to Altidore in the current Premier League is seriously apples to oranges”.
Really, how does any of that lessen Wynalda’s achievement or ameliorate Jozy’s failure?
“Now, McBride on the other hand, again was THIRTY-TWO YEARS OLD when he first started enjoying success at Fulham. You have repeatedly failed to acknowledge this basic fact. Its just a totally different situation.”
And that’s relevant because?
“Dempsey, again, came into a situation at Fulham in which fans were USED to American players. Eddie Lewis, then Boca and then McBride and THEN Dempsey.”
Eddie , who left Fulham after the 2002 season, played ONE game for the Fulham first team. Boca and McBride both started in 2004. If you want to tell me Boca had a better career at Fulham than McBride then I suggest you look up the record of their time together at Fulham..
“And not only that, he benefitted from having established. competent coaches at the helm, Hodgson, Hughes and then Jol. I was not suggesting earlier that coaches should adjust tactics to ONE player, they should be able to analyze the entire team’s skill sets, put a team on the field that maximizes the collective skill set and not use players out of position. The problem with Poyet is he has no idea how to maximize the talents of his own players.”
Poyet did not get the most out of Jozy. That does not make him an incompetent coach. The fact is he kept Sunderland from being relegated when they looked like they were going down . And he may yet keep them up this year. If he does that you can call Poyet anything you want. If you think staying in the EPL makes you an incompetent coach then I think Poyet would love to have you call him incompetent.
“Steven Fletcher is a decent striker. Connor Wickham was being praised as the next coming, even prior to the great escape. They are not scoring because Poyet does not know how to get his midfielder’s to get them the ball in areas where they are most dangerous. Its really quite simple and has nothing to do with carving out some special exception for Jozy Altidore”.
Really? How does any of that explain why Fletcher and Wickham, two mediocre players, outplayed Jozy…
“As others have pointed out, no one out of Dempsey, Wynalda or McBride had the talent Jozy displayed at age 17. None of those guys were competing internationally against the best competition in the youth championships, like Bradley and Jozy did in 2007 (going blow for blow against guys like Jo, Pato, Aguero, DiMaria, Suarez, Alexis, Pique, Chicharito and Dos Santos).”
And this has what to do with anything? When they were 17 Dempsey , Wynalda, McBride and Jozy did not display the talent that Freddy Adu , at 17, did either. Has Adudinho had a better career than any of them?
“It takes mental toughness for a 16/17 year old to come into MLS and play fearlessly, and then get signed to a top 4 La Liga team. Clearly, Villareal saw the talent in him. That’s more than any other American can say. So, the argument that somehow he is inferior to Wynalda or McBride is ludicrous on its face.”
So getting signed by a big club for big money means more than what you actually do on the field after you are signed? That is a very interesting way of evaluating players.
“As for Dempsey, I know people like him because he’s got a chip on his shoulder, and raised the US rep in England. That was good. He followed in the footsteps of Harkes, Claudio, Joe-Max, Jones, Lewis, Boca and McBride before him, all of whom represented the US well in terms of outfield players in England. I personally don’t care what the English think of US players. They haven’t produced a quality forward, other than Rooney, since Michael Owen. And before that you had to go to Shearer and Sheringham. Not a tremendous record given they have hosted what is arguably professional soccer’s toughest league since the late 90’s. Their entire national team plays in that league, and what do they have to show for it? The semi finals in 1990.”
English players and the Englsh national team are not great.. And this has what to do with Jozy’s failure in the EPL a league dominated by non-English players?
“I could care less what Clint does in England. What’s more important is what he does for the US. And in that category, he’s not nearly been as consistent as he was even at Fulham. Say what you will about Donovan and his “lack of mental toughness” as compared to Clint, but when it came down to big games against our biggest rival, Donovan was there, and the Mexicans hated it. THAT was a first”.
Clint does not play in England anymore. How did our old friend LD get into this discussion?
This discussion is getting too much! I really do not know how anyone can argue about McBride, Wynalda, and Jozy. Jozy (unless his career ends today will go down as a more prolific forward than either player).
If you want to talk ability, this is a different discussion. Wynalda is hard because he scored 8 goals in his 1 season in Bundesliga . 1992/3 was a different landscape. Bundesliga was not as good and the top leagues weren’t that much better. Marsaille won the Champions league that year over Milan. The last 8 included: Rangers, Club Brugge,CSKA Moscow, IFK Göteborg,Porto, PSV Eindhoven. However, between Jozy and McBride, why is there even a discussion? Jozy!
GW, you keep saying that McBride pushed and tested himself at the highest level, then FAIL to give Jozy credit for doing the same thing instead of staying in a place where he found success. You keep saying that Jozy failed in the arguably the best league in the World (I think it’s La Liga) and chastise him for that, but FAIL to criticize McBride for failing at the same age AT A MUCH WORSE LEAGUE. The 2nd Bundesliga then was MUCH WORSE than it is now and it isn’t great now. You then talk about how much McBride improved as player and tried again at 31/32 and succeeded then in the same post say you don’t think Jozy will improve at 25!!! Really!!!! You failed to acknowledge that at about the same time, Jozy was a more prolific scorer at 17 in the same league (MLS) than McBride was at anytime and is better scorer with USMNT. Sorry Jozy wins this one, but we see your preferences for McBride…and that’s ok. The only success McBride had that was better than Jozy was 4 1/2 years in his 30’s at Fulham. At every other facet, Jozy has shown to be better, which is why sometimes his occasional struggles were annoying.
Jozy is better! Unless he gets hurt, he will be go down as a much better player than McBride. Why is even a discussion? McBride was a good workman forward.
Paul,
I have addressed most of the points you brought up elsewhere if you care to look through the thread. Good luck with that.
This is my original comment:
“Jozy’s European adventures have revealed him to be of lesser quality than Clint, Mikey, Jones or Dolo. As a pure forward he has never been in the McBride or Wynalda class.
As an international he has been a good servant, a reasonably steady, slightly above average sort, a B- to C- kind of player. This is acceptable for now. After all, look at how well Costa Rica did with a forward of lesser productivity and an equal level of underachievement in the flashy Joel Campbell.
If you think about the current batch of first choice CONCACAF forwards. Altidore, Chicharito and Campbell have all had their issues in Europe.
The USMNT is better off with Jozy than without him but the fact that he clearly remains the best the US has available and a comparatively viable international forward is an indictment of two things:
The thin US talent pool and the fact that top class forwards, guys like Lewandoski , Suarez , Aguero or the pre-injury Falcao, are very few and far between in general.
There is nothing there that says if Jozy, Wyndalda and McBride were available to you that you should pick anyone other than Jozy. For one thing Wynalda is 45 and McBride is 42. I’m sure Jozy is stronger and far more fit.
However, comparing Jozy to McBride and Wynalda was all about their careers and what they have done for the USMNT through their performance on the club level in Europe.
These days it is less of a consideration, but unless you have followed the USMNT as closely and for as long as I have you probably can’t understand what a really big deal Wynalda’s exploits were. And that goes double for McBride. You can look them up.
Jozy is a fine player and I’m perfectly happy to have him continue to start for the US but in the context of judging the impact of their European club careers, it ain’t close, especially if you narrow it down to McBride. He took his time getting there but eventually was a success along with Boca and Clint, the Fulham/ America contingent. McBride started humble, mostly due to injury, and left proud.
In comparison Jozy started humble, hit the heights with AZ and then left with his tail between his legs. It is a different time so the damage isn’t what it would have been ten years ago. And don’t tell me that how American outfield payers do in the EPL, probably the highest profile league in the world, does not mean something to American fans. LD goes to Everton for 9 games, lights it up, and everyone on SBI creams in their pants.
But wait you say, Jozy is young enough to go back and succeed.
Yeah, and you could also win the next Powerball. Of course, anything is possible. Real Madrid might trade Bale to Man U. and sign Freddy Adu to replace him. He’d be a lot cheaper.
I could be wrong but I just don’t think it is likely or even desirable.
I believe he does not have a lot to gain from Europe at this point in his career.
I’d rather Jozy stay in MLS where he will have a team built around him. That will keep him fit, ready and in a positive frame of mind for the USMNT, which is all I care about
He is what they call in American sports a “system guy”. As long as he is the right system then he will be fine but he’s not talented enough to stretch.
As they love to say, he is what he is.
GW,
I too have been following the USMNT team since 89 or so. I could not watch the games on tv then (I don’t think anyone could), but I remember following cards from Sports Illustrated for Kids in middle school. I didn’t actually see games until high school and after I graduated, during the ’94 world cup.
I suppose we have to agree to disagree. I really like McBride for his grit, but from everything I have seen, Jozy is a better player. Jozy and McBride overlapped, and I would comfortably put money that Jozy is better. I watched them both play in person and on television. McBride was beat out by Josh Wolff and Clint Mathis! Mathis was decent, but c’mon. Wynalda could have been special, but his head got in the way. Jozy was better than all except maybe Wynalda, who was more dynamic. Then again, maybe I am clouded by nostalgic memories of that team and the statement they made.
McBride also did not have to deal with Jozy’s expectations. Never did. That is what I liked about LD, he had a greater mountain of expectations and delivered on a lot of it for the USMNT. Btw, he did well, but he DID NOT tear up the EPL in his 9 game stretch at Everton. Keep in mind, Jozy did not really want to come back to MLS. He rebuffed the Galaxy. He wanted to fight for another EU transfer. However, when MLS made it know that they wanted to buy for money that Sunderland was not going to get otherwise, MLS move was as good as done.
Paul,
We’ll have to agree to disagree.
Earlier in this thread I did point out that, to be fair, Jozy had a few years left on his Sunderland contract so it wasn’t like he was a free agent. And for Sunderland to get Defoe thrown in along with the money, well Jozy was going to TFC regardless.
I don’t question Jozy’s skill or talent. Given the level of underachievement in his career, I question his desire.
I question whether he has the kind of insane single minded focus that the best athletes, guys like Jordan, Kobe, Brady, etc. have to succeed consistently. That is what is missing, the consistency. Basically, I get the impression he is too nice a guy.
Hopefully, he proves me wrong and goes on to have a stellar top flight career.
Jozy has done well for three managers.
None of you respect JK and he’d
be crazy to answer honestly anyway. BB probably wouldn’t talk either. So I wish someone would interview Verbeek, his manager at AZ and ask him in depth about Jozy. Verbeek is a hard case. He is crazy and doesn’t care what anyone thinks so maybe he’d be honest.
GW–
Had to come back in light of current events… shall we revisit your assertions that: (1) managers don’t adjust their system/tactics for one player, or to match the skills of their players, and that; (2) Gus Poyet is a competent coach?
You stated: “In a perfect world sure they do but there are ten other guys on the field. There are only so many adjustments you can make for an individual player before it is simpler to replace that one guy instead of the other ten.”
Poyet himself disagrees with this assertion. From the Guardian January 30, 2015: “Right now [Poyet] is concentrating on trying to improve the service to his strikers, the newly arrived Jermain Defoe and Scotland’s Steven Fletcher. ‘I don’t think we play to Fletch’s strengths,’ [Poyet] acknowledged. ‘I don’t think I’d be able to score too many goals in this team if I was playing because we don’t cross enough. Fletcher needs deliveries but we don’t deliver enough. For balls into the box we’re one of the worst teams.’ So here, Poyet suggests that you can’t expect anyone (Fletcher, Defoe, even Poyet himself)to score in their system given their poor delivery, yet you expect Altidore to do so? How on earth is that fair? Are you suggesting that Dempsey, McBride or Wynalda would have succeeded in this system? What, based on mental toughness?
Poyet still hasn’t made the adjustments that he himself felt were necessary in January. From the Hartlepool Mail, dated March 14, 2015: “CREATING sufficient chances for Jermain Defoe is a much bigger headache for Gus Poyet, than when the striker will get back among the goals. January signing Defoe will come up against former team-mate and manager Tim Sherwood’s Aston Villa’s side today looking to end a run of four games without a goal. Little blame can be attached to Defoe himself for that lean streak, with the service to the England international largely poor over recent weeks and Poyet using a conveyor belt of strike partners and systems in a bid to get the elusive win that would move Sunderland away from relegation danger…But the head coach knows the supply lines need to be better for Defoe, with Sunderland going back to basics on the training ground this week to achieve that objective. ‘I hope we can find a partnership and find a way of playing that will make Jermain have more chances than he has had.’.” So, its okay to blame Defoe’s lack of goals for lack of service, but an “apology” to make the same the same observation for Altidore playing in the same system? OK man…
You say you don’t question Jozy’s talent, “I don’t question Jozy’s skill or talent,” yet go on to do so in the next breath: “He is what they call in American sports a “system guy”. As long as he is the right system then he will be fine but he’s not talented enough to stretch.”
You then go on to say “Poyet did not get the most out of Jozy. That does not make him an incompetent coach…If you think staying in the EPL makes you an incompetent coach then I think Poyet would love to have you call him incompetent.”
Poyet is competent? Tell that to the Sunderland fans who had to be physically restrained from going after Poyet WHILE HE WAS SITTING ON THE BENCH, after they lost AGAIN 4-0 at home. You call losing 4-0 and 8-0 during the same season competent? Just like your Wynalda revisionist history, you are all alone on this one.
Your main point seems to be that American club performance in Europe “does something” for the USMNT. Just what exactly?
“To this day SBI US fans fail to recognize how much credibility Clint Dempsey and his EPL exploits brought to the USMNT .”
How do you measure this? What year did this credibility attach? Did Fulham or any other team start recruiting a rash of US players in search of the next Clint? The answer is no. So there is no tangible measurement for the “respect” you say Clint “garnered” for the USMNT, other than, perhaps, your pride during pub debates with Anglophiles.
“And don’t tell me that how American outfield payers do in the EPL, probably the highest profile league in the world, does not mean something to American fans.”
It means “something”, but beating teams like Portugal and Mexico and outplaying Germany on the way to the World Cup Quarters meant way more.
You then go on to laud McBride and Wynalda’s exploits:
“However, comparing Jozy to McBride and Wynalda was all about their careers and what they have done for the USMNT through their performance on the club level in Europe.”
“These days it is less of a consideration, but unless you have followed the USMNT as closely and for as long as I have you probably can’t understand what a really big deal Wynalda’s exploits were. And that goes double for McBride. You can look them up.” “Actually yes, especially given when it happened. Wynalda was a trailblazer. What awards of that sort or any sort has Jozy ever won? When has the Eredivisie ever been ranked above the BL? Really, how does any of that lessen Wynalda’s achievement or ameliorate Jozy’s failure?”
You admit that you were a Wynalda fan boy because of what he represented for U.S. soccer at that time. You are probably giving some extra weight to his “trailblazing” status, because the numbers and facts don’t match up. You claim his career in Europe was a “success” when compared to Jozy. First, Jozy has scored more goals than Wynalda in Europe. Let’s be clear about Wynalda’s record: He scored 11 goals in 57 appearances in the 1st division of the Bundesliga, which in 1992-94, was NOT better than the Eredivisie. I listed the leading scorers during Wynalda’s 2 season run. The leading scorers in the Eredvisie during that time? Dennis Bergkamp, Romario and Ronaldo. I’ll take them over Yeboah and those other guys. PSV and Ajax were better than any team in the Bundesliga during that period. PSV (managed by Hiddink) still had the backbone of the ’88 Champions league winners and the ’92 European Championship semifinalists (that beat Germany 3-1 in the group stage). Ajax (managed by van Gaal) of course, had Bergkamp, and the young nucleus that would go on to win the Champions League in 1995 (Litmanen, the DeBoers, Reiziger, Overmaars, Davids and Seedorf). At best, the Bundesliga in 1992-94 was the 5th best league, behind Italy, Spain, England and Holland.
Now, back to Jozy, you admitted that the EPL is currently the best league in the world. Comparing Wynalda’s performance in the 5th best league at the time to Altidore’s in the best league is completely inapposite. You then argue that Wynalda’s “Newcomer of the Year” award based on 9 goals in 1992-93 in Europe’s 5th best league is somehow better than Altidore’s accomplishment of setting the season record for goals by an American in Europe. If Wynalda was so clearly superior to Altidore, why couldn’t he accomplish it, even in the Bundesliga SECOND division (where he scored 14 compared to Altidore’s 23 in Holland’s first division). In fact, 14 was the best Wynalda could do in ANY season during his career, INCLUDING MLS. You are the only person arguing that Wynalda’s run in the Bundesliga was some kind of high water mark for Americans in Europe.
As for the USMNT, Wynalda had a great run in 1996 where he scored 9 in one year. But all those goals (save the only goal he scored in his career against Mexico) were against teams against mediocre teams (T&T (3), Guatemala (2), El Salvador (2), Scotland). He’s never led the USMNT in World Cup qualifying goals (a total of 5, which Altidore has already doubled) and scored only 1 time in 3 world cup appearances. The bulk of his remaining goals were against juggernauts like Iceland, Malta, Liechtenstein, China, Cuba, Morocco and Haiti.
You seem to think that the rest of the world will respect the US based on the club exploits of individual players. I disagree. US soccer will get respect when they beat the best teams in the World Cup. Plain and simple. Team success will also garner more US-based fans as well. Club success is a measure of the educated fan. The average American has zero idea of what Fulham is. But they did follow the US during the World Cup. World Cup success will also strengthen MLS. Strong showings in the World Cup, along with a strong domestic league, will garner respect more so than anything.
The best analogy is the NBA. Did we respect Croatian basketball any more because of Toni Kukoc? No. We destroy Croatia every time we play them. Argentina because of Ginobili? Spain because of the Gasols? No. We still own those teams and won’t respect them until they show that they can compete with us consistently at the highest level. One or two outliers in the NBA isn’t enough. Likewise, it ain’t gonna happen for US soccer because Dempsey scored in double figures two times for Fulham.
Nate
GW–
“Had to come back in light of current events… shall we revisit your assertions that: (1) managers don’t adjust their system/tactics for one player, or to match the skills of their players, and that; (2) Gus Poyet is a competent coach?
You stated: “In a perfect world sure they do but there are ten other guys on the field. There are only so many adjustments you can make for an individual player before it is simpler to replace that one guy instead of the other ten.”
Poyet himself disagrees with this assertion. From the Guardian January 30, 2015: “Right now [Poyet] is concentrating on trying to improve the service to his strikers, the newly arrived Jermain Defoe and Scotland’s Steven Fletcher. ‘I don’t think we play to Fletch’s strengths,’ [Poyet] acknowledged. ‘I don’t think I’d be able to score too many goals in this team if I was playing because we don’t cross enough. Fletcher needs deliveries but we don’t deliver enough. For balls into the box we’re one of the worst teams.’ So here, Poyet suggests that you can’t expect anyone (Fletcher, Defoe, even Poyet himself)to score in their system given their poor delivery, yet you expect Altidore to do so? How on earth is that fair? Are you suggesting that Dempsey, McBride or Wynalda would have succeeded in this system? What, based on mental toughness?”
You are missing the point.
Sunderland is a wasteland for goal scorers. But, Wickham and Fletcher , Jozy’s team mates and presumably dealing with the same set of circumstances, have done a better job of scoring for Sunderland than Jozy has. And by the way Jozy had more appearances than either of them during the period in question.
Fletcher were handed the same chicken s++t sandwich that Jozy was handed and they made more chicken salad out of it than Jozy did.
Wickham and Fletcher are fine players but, all things being equal, I would not have expected them to outscore Jozy who is more talented than either one.
So yes, being outperformed by those two over that time, doesn’t say a lot for Jozy.
“Poyet still hasn’t made the adjustments that he himself felt were necessary in January. From the Hartlepool Mail, dated March 14, 2015: “CREATING sufficient chances for Jermain Defoe is a much bigger headache for Gus Poyet, than when the striker will get back among the goals. January signing Defoe will come up against former team-mate and manager Tim Sherwood’s Aston Villa’s side today looking to end a run of four games without a goal. Little blame can be attached to Defoe himself for that lean streak, with the service to the England international largely poor over recent weeks and Poyet using a conveyor belt of strike partners and systems in a bid to get the elusive win that would move Sunderland away from relegation danger…But the head coach knows the supply lines need to be better for Defoe, with Sunderland going back to basics on the training ground this week to achieve that objective. ‘I hope we can find a partnership and find a way of playing that will make Jermain
have more chances than he has had.’.” So, its okay to blame Defoe’s lack of goals for lack of service, but an “apology” to make the same the same observation for Altidore playing in the same system? OK man…You say you don’t question Jozy’s talent, “I don’t question Jozy’s skill or talent,” yet go on to do so in the next breath: “He is what they call in American sports a “system guy”. As long as he is the right system then he will be fine but he’s not talented enough to stretch.”
Talent or skill is one thing. Being able to use it or express it is another. The term underachiever comes to mind. Jozy has long been regarded by the “SBI illuminati” as a confidence player, i.e. when he has his confidence he is great but when he loses it, well that’s something else. The thing is since his transfer to Europe, Jozy only has had that at AZ and the US, two systems that were organized more or less around him. It did not happen for him at Villareal, Xerez, Turkey, Hull or Sunderland.
That’s why I call him a system player unlike for example, Clint , who doesn’t seem to need as much help scoring. In his one turbulent year at Spurs he scored 12 goals,
“You then go on to say “Poyet did not get the most out of Jozy. That does not make him an incompetent coach…If you think staying in the EPL makes you an incompetent coach then I think Poyet would love to have you call him incompetent.” Poyet is competent? Tell that to the Sunderland fans who had to be physically restrained from going after Poyet WHILE HE WAS SITTING ON THE BENCH, after they lost AGAIN 4-0 at home. You call losing 4-0 and 8-0 during the same season competent? Just like your Wynalda revisionist history, you are all alone on this one.”
If Poyet is incompetent then why did you use his quotes earlier as an authority of Sunderland’s scoring woes? That’s counterintuitive isn’t it?
I won’t belabor the point but if you think the fact that Poyet couldn’t get the best out of one particular player ( in this case Jozy) makes a manager incompetent then there are a lot of incompetent managers currently managing successful clubs in the EPL, MLS and elsewhere.
“Your main point seems to be that American club performance in Europe “does something” for the USMNT. Just what exactly? “To this day SBI US fans fail to recognize how much credibility Clint Dempsey and his EPL exploits brought to the USMNT .”
How do you measure this? What year did this credibility attach? Did Fulham or any other team start recruiting a rash of US players in search of the next Clint? The answer is no. So there is no tangible measurement for the “respect” you say Clint “garnered” for the USMNT, other than, perhaps, your pride during pub debates with Anglophiles.
“Okay I get it. You didn’t think Clint’s time in England meant anything.”
“And don’t tell me that how American outfield payers do in the EPL, probably the highest profile league in the world, does not mean something to American fans.”
It means “something”, but beating teams like Portugal and Mexico and outplaying Germany on the way to the World Cup Quarters meant way more.”
So the two are mutually exclusive?
You then go on to laud McBride and Wynalda’s exploits:
“However, comparing Jozy to McBride and Wynalda was all about their careers and what they have done for the USMNT through their performance on the club level in Europe.”
“These days it is less of a consideration, but unless you have followed the USMNT as closely and for as long as I have you probably can’t understand what a really big deal Wynalda’s exploits were. And that goes double for McBride. You can look them up.” “Actually yes, especially given when it happened. Wynalda was a trailblazer. What awards of that sort or any sort has Jozy ever won? When has the Eredivisie ever been ranked above the BL? Really, how does any of that lessen Wynalda’s achievement or ameliorate Jozy’s failure?”
You admit that you were a Wynalda fan boy because of what he represented for U.S. soccer at that time. You are probably giving some extra weight to his “trailblazing” status, because the numbers and facts don’t match up. You claim his career in Europe was a “success” when compared to Jozy. First, Jozy has scored more goals than Wynalda in Europe. Let’s be clear about Wynalda’s record: He scored 11 goals in 57 appearances in the 1st division of the Bundesliga, which in 1992-94, was NOT better than the Eredivisie. I listed the leading scorers during Wynalda’s 2 season run. The leading scorers in the Eredvisie during that time? Dennis Bergkamp, Romario and Ronaldo. I’ll take them over Yeboah and those other guys. PSV and Ajax were better than any team in the Bundesliga during that period. PSV (managed by Hiddink) still had the backbone of the ’88 Champions league winners and the ’92 European Championship semifinalists (that beat Germany 3-1 in the group stage).
Ajax (managed by van Gaal) of course, had Bergkamp, and the young nucleus that would go on to win the Champions League in 1995 (Litmanen, the DeBoers, Reiziger, Overmaars, Davids and Seedorf). At best, the Bundesliga in 1992-94 was the 5th best league, behind Italy, Spain, England and Holland.
Now, back to Jozy, you admitted that the EPL is currently the best league in the world. Comparing Wynalda’s performance in the 5th best league at the time to Altidore’s in the best league is completely inapposite. You then argue that Wynalda’s “Newcomer of the Year” award based on 9 goals in 1992-93 in Europe’s 5th best league is somehow better than Altidore’s accomplishment of setting the season record for goals by an American in Europe. If Wynalda was so clearly superior to Altidore, why couldn’t he accomplish it, even in the Bundesliga SECOND division (where he scored 14 compared to Altidore’s 23 in Holland’s first division). In fact, 14 was the best Wynalda could do in ANY season during his career, INCLUDING MLS. You are the only person arguing that Wynalda’s run in the Bundesliga was some kind of high water mark for Americans in Europe.
As for the USMNT, Wynalda had a great run in 1996 where he scored 9 in one year. But all those goals (save the only goal he scored in his career against Mexico) were against teams against mediocre teams (T&T (3), Guatemala (2), El Salvador (2), Scotland). He’s never led the USMNT in World Cup qualifying goals (a total of 5, which Altidore has already doubled) and scored only 1 time in 3 world cup appearances. The bulk of his remaining goals were against juggernauts like Iceland, Malta, Liechtenstein, China, Cuba, Morocco and Haiti.
You seem to think that the rest of the world will respect the US based on the club exploits of individual players. I disagree.”
You haven’t the foggiest idea what I think.
“US soccer will get respect when they beat the best teams in the World Cup. Plain and simple. Team success will also garner more US-based fans as well. Club success is a measure of the educated fan. The average American has zero idea of what Fulham is. But they did follow the US during the World Cup. World Cup success will also strengthen MLS. Strong showings in the World Cup, along with a strong domestic league, will garner respect more so than anything.
The best analogy is the NBA. Did we respect Croatian basketball any more because of Toni Kukoc? No. We destroy Croatia every time we play them. Argentina because of Ginobili? Spain because of the Gasols? No. We still own those teams and won’t respect them until they show that they can compete with us consistently at the highest level. One or two outliers in the NBA isn’t enough. Likewise, it ain’t gonna happen for US soccer because Dempsey scored in double figures two times for Fulham.”
Okay, if you don’t want to give any credit to Wynalda, McBride and Clint that‘s fine with me, though why you have so little regard for them is unfortunate.
It doesn’t change the fact that Jozy’s time at Sunderland was an abject failure
its 2 in 9. defoe is rubbish. just like robbie keane was rubbish in EPL when he left spurs. his level is MLS and jermaine thought he could come back here and make it work. he hasnt been that great.
Benoit Cheyrou was incredible, as was Morrow, Giovinco and Altidore. Findleys performance reminded me of how hungry he has seemed in past seasons. Toronto’s performance was most deserving of the full points and I can’t wait to see them live vs my Galaxy come July.
Wow Toronto FC looked really good, playing sound technical soccer
Benoit Cheyrou – got picked up without too much publicity and flair but he’s touch is phenomenal
Warren Creavalle – WHERE DID HE COME FROM? 24 year old midfielder turned right back, overlapping all night on the wing (I thought he was a foreign player
Robbie Findley – is back and physical fit. He looked good for TFC
Justin Morrow – overlapping runs (like him and Creavalle are trying to play like USMNT LB and RB!!!!) all night resulted in a goal. If he keeps this up he’ll get Klinsmann’s attention
Altidore….Altidore……wow, that’s all I can say
agreed on cheyrou: was wondering why there was really no fanfare over his acquisition. he’s a great complement to bradley–really gives him a lot of freedom.