The only thing that pathetic is that u can’t see were not crusaders, only hyperbole fighters. Lol. There’s a difference between sayin “jozy is world class, sunderlands midfield sucks so that’s why he didn’t score” and “sunderland have failed to provide sufficing service thus their forwards don’t have a lot of goals”
You can slice it and dice it any which way you want to but at the end of the day the facts are pretty clear. He failed in Spain (twice), he failed in England (twice) he failed in Turkey…… are all of these failures due to something other than his lack or skills? Maybe, but all of the failures combined can only mean one thing: he’s not good enough for those leagues. He did fine in MLS and Holland. Well, guess what? THAT’S HIS LEVEL.. Not the EPL or La Liga, MLS or maybe a bit higher. Those leagues are for those with the right combination of skills and mental strength and Altidore just doesn’t have it.
as long as you see that i’m just trying to rationally pull this convo back in the logical middle ground instead of “he’s terrible / he’s the best ever” convo people think I’m making, we can continue.
outside his EPL days (on two terrible teams), calling him a failure is slightly hyperbolic (again). for Villareal he was a sub scoring once in 6 games. he was then loaned out to Xerez for 6 months where he was injured, had surgery and never made the 18. he then was loaned to hull for a season where he scored 2 in 30 apps (not good numbers but also a terribly run team at the time which was relegated, blame given where blame due). then he returned to Villareal where he scored 2 in 11 apps in the first half(3 in 17 for Villareal total) and was loaned to buraspor for 6 months where he scored 1 in 12. these numbers arguably show he was not a top talent but also show he wasn’t useless. again, nothing to write home about but also nothing to be thrown to the wolves for. note that at this time he was 18-21 during this time; hard to criticize a “kid” for trying to develop in europe. he then went on to score 51 goals in 93 apps at AZ (0.55 strike rate). all in all, these facts seem to show he can have success in the right system– which does rule him out of the world class category where players dominate in any league. again, a “failure” would be failing to ever score and not even making the field (Sir Brekothy…..). but perhaps we have different definitions. I’ve never been one to say he is a top talent that can dribble through defenses or score Zlatan-esqe volleys from mid field. but to say he’s terrible, again, is annoying hyperbole. it is believed by some that there are better teams that fit him other than sunderland (perhaps a team with a strong passing midfield unlike sunderland). in a similar light, some could say that had di maria gone to chelsea and juan mata to united they might have performed better since they would have fit the team need and style better. so it’d be silly to say juan mata is a “failure” because he didn’t fit in as previously envisioned; but such is football.
my goal celebration was better. get your own, Defoe…
no one really argued that Jozy was as good as Defoe. so comparing their goals in a serious attempt at hating on Jozy is silly. regardless of who’s better, Sunderland still have trouble giving proper service to their forwards (evidenced by their fads not scoring a lot of goals; their mids have had the most goals on the team). of Defoe’s 3 goals, his first was a proper one, his second was a tap in (defense had given up claiming offside on Van Aanholt) and the third was served in by the GK in a 45’+ desperate long ball…… by taking into account all the facts, it’s still evident that Sunderland don’t know how to properly serve their forwards. the point is, this does not imply Jozy is the next ronaldo with all the blame going to Sunderland. Jozy did not perform well. sunderland did not serve well. the causality can only go one direction.
as for whether or not Jozy “is not good enough for that level”, there are many factors that go into that conclusion. Sunderlands service and his talents are just two of the factors. jumping to broad conlcusions is never a good thing.
That tap in you mentioned? Jozy missed those while at Sunderland. Even then, the lack of scoring and missed sitters are not the reason he’s back in MLS, it was his lack of the most basic of football skills. He looked completely outmatched out there. If he had shown a sliver of competence at that level another team would’ve given him a chance. None did so off to a lesser league he went.
I don’t know why people have such a hard time accepting this fact. Most players in the world are not good enough for the EPL. Altidore happens to be one more of them.
So how is it that he scores pretty consistently at the International level, against even the top squads?
He’s scored great – not just good – goals against the likes of Spain as far back at the ’09 Confeds Cup, when he shrugged off and turned Pujols and then almost took Iker Castillo’s hand off with a blast from outside 18. He got a brace against Germany and then a hat trick in Bosnia. With the USMNT, he looks different. I can guarantee you if we ever bump into England at the International level he’ll be dangerous all day – he was, in fact, quite dangerous against England in the 2010 World Cup, and really should have scored when he absolutely dogged Jamie Carragher around the edge and almost snuck one in at near post. He looked good enough then – against the alleged best from England.
Why can’t people accept that players are not numerical values in EA Sports’ FIFA game, and that a player in one environment can look wretched in the wrong situation?
Accuse Jozy all day long of being a hothouse flower who doesn’t seem to do well – at all – when he doesn’t feel valued and supported, and I won’t argue. He’s no Clint Dempsey, who just gets madder when the manager benches him and his teammates and the fans doubt him. Didn’t matter how many new Fulham managers put Dempsey on the bench as a first order of business when they took over – and it was literally all of them – he just fought his way back and got his job back the hard way. Jozy, on the other hand, droops.
But just summarily saying “he’s not good enough” is dismissive, simplistic…and wrong.
+1
So, as long as he feels loved, respected and admired he does fine but as soon as things don’t go his way he suddenly forgets the most basic of football skills. Fair enough. Do you know what that makes him? NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.
The EPL is a man’s league. If not getting your ego stroked in a regular basis turns you into a useless log that can’t perform the most basic of football moves then YOU. ARE. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.
If you can’t find your way out of a bad situation and figure out a way to help a bad team that paid a lot of money for your services then YOU. ARE. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.
You might do fine in a lesser league but when it comes to playing in one of the best leagues in the world. YOU. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.
There is more to a player than scoring goals. If going to a bad team makes you a bad player then you become part of the problem instead of a solution. If that happens then YOU. ARE. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH
and when you resort to overly repetitive, trite arguments and overuse all-caps, YOU. ARE. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.
Hahah +1
Rob, So by your standards Juan mata and do Maria aren’t good enough…. Lol. Not to mention it took ozil 2 years to actually provide his team assists. Had he left after a year an a half would u consider him not good enough? Google “hyperbole” and understand how ridiculous u sound.
How good is the EPL, really?
Its an honest question. It’s a very, very EXPENSIVE league, mind…but outside the top 5-6 teams, which are just absurdly overpaid with the exception of Southampton, is the level really that great?
I think it’s an extremely PRESSURIZED league, mind. Given the vast amounts of money thrown at these players the fan expectations and media pressure is just insane, and they’re just incredibly vicious and put guys in a fishbowl that I don’t know how any young player survives, to be honest with you. But the level of play just plain doesn’t impress me a ton, usually. It’s not as pretty technically as La Liga, not as tactical as Serie A, not as polished and precise and lockstep as the Bundesliga, doesn’t have near the flair of the Brazilian league.
Something’s off, with English soccer. The top teams import a bunch of highly-paid foreigners, but for whatever reason they’re doing a pretty crappy job of developing English players. I don’t know if it’s a general lack of athleticism in the English population or the aforementioned media/fan hostility but for whatever reason, as much soccer as they play and as much money as they spend on it, the English are just not that great at soccer right now…which is definitely borne out by the results – or lack thereof – their national team has gotten lately. They took second to the US in 2010 – and that was legit; we were better. They didn’t even make it out of group in Brazil…and that was legit, Costa Rica and Uruguay were better. And they win a lot of games against the likes of Malta and Wales 1-0 in qualifying.
Altidore was more than a good enough soccer player to be at Sunderland. I do question know if he had thick enough skin to make it in England…and IMHO a whole bunch of that starts off the field and has nothing to do with soccer. That’s not being a “man’s league”, that’s a social problem. There’s a weirdly hostile culture there that tends to eat its own, and almost seems to enjoy tossing soccer players off the sacrificial altar the moment they start struggling, and you gotta be just INCREDIBLY thick-skinned to gut through it.
The goal against Spain is not a great goal, it was a very meaningful goal for USA but let’s not get carried away, the goal was ugly, he struck the ball hard and to Casillas when he had the whole goal frame to chose, a bigger goalie would probably block it since Casillas had a whole hand on the ball. In the England game he missed an easy header right outside the 6 yard box. You want to bring up friendlies, go ahead, might as well bring up the LD hattrick in a 5-1 performance vs. Scotland.
And how well LD played the following game vs. Brazil.
“That tap in you mentioned? Jozy missed those while at Sunderland.” “those” would imply multiple missed sitters. please cite exact instances. being a person who watched 90% of Sunderland games over that 1.5 years, there were only 2 possible sitters with the Cardiff one not really being a sitter ( it wasn’t off service, Ki took a hard shot that deflected-spinning away- where jozy couldn’t get off a good rebound shot). the West ham sitter was his honey true sitter.
“If he had shown a sliver of competence at that level another team would’ve given him a chance. None did so off to a lesser league he went.”
you truly don’t understand the way transfers work. there were other teams that wanted him just not to the terms sunderland wanted. the teams wanted to take him on loan with buy option. sunderland wanted (needed) to receive either another player or money to buy another player in return. their only option for this was to transfer him for defoe. thats just business. had defoe played for another EPL team or euro team and been willing to trade him they would have done the same. the point being, there are way more factors to the things you’re just brushing off solely to make generalizations. jozy isn’t world class, no one’s really argued that so i don’t know whom these people are that you believe “have such a hard time accepting this fact. ”
he didn’t work for sunderland much as he wouldn’t work for other teams that struggle to pass and serve.
every time you make a hyperbolic statement, a baby seal dies…..
“Even then, the lack of scoring and missed sitters are not the reason he’s back in MLS, it was his lack of the most basic of football skills.”
source? because i’m pretty sure i could dig up a few quotes and stats that showed that jozy did pretty well at most everything besides scoring.
leaving all that aside, the “reason he’s back in MLS” is because toronto was willing to pay a sh!tload of money for him. there’s really no need to make anything up.
Source? You might want to sit down for this one….. My source is…… I watched the games. Dude had the first touch of a land mine, actually got shorter when he jumped, had the upper body strength of a 12 year old girl and the movement of Death Valley’s walking rock.
I also saw a stat that said Luis Suarez was one of the cleanest players in the EPL. There is a stat for everything but nothing’s as accurate as watching the games with an honest view.
“Dude had the first touch of a land mine, actually got shorter when he jumped, had the upper body strength of a 12 year old girl and the movement of Death Valley’s walking rock.”
oh thank god, when you said you watched the games, i thought i was going to have a rational debate with you, and that would’ve blown my mind. your hyperbole just saved my life (no exaggeration, seriously).
“There is a stat for everything but nothing’s as accurate as watching the games with an honest view.”
eh, “accurate”? that’s debatable. i agree that one needs to actually watch the games to get a full understanding of the statistics, but certain things might stand out when watching a game (especially through the filter of tv) that take on more importance than they should–such as a bad giveaway, when the overall passing rate is high.
as for your suarez argument: ‘cleanest player in the EPL’ is kind of a sketchy statistic, whereas team leader in assists (think jozy was tied with adam johnson last season) is not. but points for effort, i guess.
The only reason he scored that great goal is because he doesn’t get any service and has to create his own chances.
This conversation is so tired and petty, at this point. Everyone…on both sides…should move on.
america’s great right? freedom to comment on a soccer blog; freedom to NOT read comments you don’t want to read….. crazy how that works…
No joke or sarcasm: I feel bad for you.
good story………. go ahead, ask me…
nice! sunderland finally figured out how to get the ball to their forwards. (and yes, that’s “forwards”–plural. weird how that works.)
Haha yea except the service came from the gk off a long free kick. Their mids should take notes lol
Jozy sucked at Sunderland and it was his fault. You Jozy crusaders just need to let it go….its pathetic.
The only thing that pathetic is that u can’t see were not crusaders, only hyperbole fighters. Lol. There’s a difference between sayin “jozy is world class, sunderlands midfield sucks so that’s why he didn’t score” and “sunderland have failed to provide sufficing service thus their forwards don’t have a lot of goals”
You can slice it and dice it any which way you want to but at the end of the day the facts are pretty clear. He failed in Spain (twice), he failed in England (twice) he failed in Turkey…… are all of these failures due to something other than his lack or skills? Maybe, but all of the failures combined can only mean one thing: he’s not good enough for those leagues. He did fine in MLS and Holland. Well, guess what? THAT’S HIS LEVEL.. Not the EPL or La Liga, MLS or maybe a bit higher. Those leagues are for those with the right combination of skills and mental strength and Altidore just doesn’t have it.
as long as you see that i’m just trying to rationally pull this convo back in the logical middle ground instead of “he’s terrible / he’s the best ever” convo people think I’m making, we can continue.
outside his EPL days (on two terrible teams), calling him a failure is slightly hyperbolic (again). for Villareal he was a sub scoring once in 6 games. he was then loaned out to Xerez for 6 months where he was injured, had surgery and never made the 18. he then was loaned to hull for a season where he scored 2 in 30 apps (not good numbers but also a terribly run team at the time which was relegated, blame given where blame due). then he returned to Villareal where he scored 2 in 11 apps in the first half(3 in 17 for Villareal total) and was loaned to buraspor for 6 months where he scored 1 in 12. these numbers arguably show he was not a top talent but also show he wasn’t useless. again, nothing to write home about but also nothing to be thrown to the wolves for. note that at this time he was 18-21 during this time; hard to criticize a “kid” for trying to develop in europe. he then went on to score 51 goals in 93 apps at AZ (0.55 strike rate). all in all, these facts seem to show he can have success in the right system– which does rule him out of the world class category where players dominate in any league. again, a “failure” would be failing to ever score and not even making the field (Sir Brekothy…..). but perhaps we have different definitions. I’ve never been one to say he is a top talent that can dribble through defenses or score Zlatan-esqe volleys from mid field. but to say he’s terrible, again, is annoying hyperbole. it is believed by some that there are better teams that fit him other than sunderland (perhaps a team with a strong passing midfield unlike sunderland). in a similar light, some could say that had di maria gone to chelsea and juan mata to united they might have performed better since they would have fit the team need and style better. so it’d be silly to say juan mata is a “failure” because he didn’t fit in as previously envisioned; but such is football.
my goal celebration was better. get your own, Defoe…
Except without service he has scored 3 in 12 games.
Jozy scored 3 in 54.
Its evident Jozy is just not good enough to be on that level.
And we have a hard time facing that fact.
no one really argued that Jozy was as good as Defoe. so comparing their goals in a serious attempt at hating on Jozy is silly. regardless of who’s better, Sunderland still have trouble giving proper service to their forwards (evidenced by their fads not scoring a lot of goals; their mids have had the most goals on the team). of Defoe’s 3 goals, his first was a proper one, his second was a tap in (defense had given up claiming offside on Van Aanholt) and the third was served in by the GK in a 45’+ desperate long ball…… by taking into account all the facts, it’s still evident that Sunderland don’t know how to properly serve their forwards. the point is, this does not imply Jozy is the next ronaldo with all the blame going to Sunderland. Jozy did not perform well. sunderland did not serve well. the causality can only go one direction.
as for whether or not Jozy “is not good enough for that level”, there are many factors that go into that conclusion. Sunderlands service and his talents are just two of the factors. jumping to broad conlcusions is never a good thing.
That tap in you mentioned? Jozy missed those while at Sunderland. Even then, the lack of scoring and missed sitters are not the reason he’s back in MLS, it was his lack of the most basic of football skills. He looked completely outmatched out there. If he had shown a sliver of competence at that level another team would’ve given him a chance. None did so off to a lesser league he went.
I don’t know why people have such a hard time accepting this fact. Most players in the world are not good enough for the EPL. Altidore happens to be one more of them.
So how is it that he scores pretty consistently at the International level, against even the top squads?
He’s scored great – not just good – goals against the likes of Spain as far back at the ’09 Confeds Cup, when he shrugged off and turned Pujols and then almost took Iker Castillo’s hand off with a blast from outside 18. He got a brace against Germany and then a hat trick in Bosnia. With the USMNT, he looks different. I can guarantee you if we ever bump into England at the International level he’ll be dangerous all day – he was, in fact, quite dangerous against England in the 2010 World Cup, and really should have scored when he absolutely dogged Jamie Carragher around the edge and almost snuck one in at near post. He looked good enough then – against the alleged best from England.
Why can’t people accept that players are not numerical values in EA Sports’ FIFA game, and that a player in one environment can look wretched in the wrong situation?
Accuse Jozy all day long of being a hothouse flower who doesn’t seem to do well – at all – when he doesn’t feel valued and supported, and I won’t argue. He’s no Clint Dempsey, who just gets madder when the manager benches him and his teammates and the fans doubt him. Didn’t matter how many new Fulham managers put Dempsey on the bench as a first order of business when they took over – and it was literally all of them – he just fought his way back and got his job back the hard way. Jozy, on the other hand, droops.
But just summarily saying “he’s not good enough” is dismissive, simplistic…and wrong.
+1
So, as long as he feels loved, respected and admired he does fine but as soon as things don’t go his way he suddenly forgets the most basic of football skills. Fair enough. Do you know what that makes him? NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.
The EPL is a man’s league. If not getting your ego stroked in a regular basis turns you into a useless log that can’t perform the most basic of football moves then YOU. ARE. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.
If you can’t find your way out of a bad situation and figure out a way to help a bad team that paid a lot of money for your services then YOU. ARE. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.
You might do fine in a lesser league but when it comes to playing in one of the best leagues in the world. YOU. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.
There is more to a player than scoring goals. If going to a bad team makes you a bad player then you become part of the problem instead of a solution. If that happens then YOU. ARE. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH
and when you resort to overly repetitive, trite arguments and overuse all-caps, YOU. ARE. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.
Hahah +1
Rob, So by your standards Juan mata and do Maria aren’t good enough…. Lol. Not to mention it took ozil 2 years to actually provide his team assists. Had he left after a year an a half would u consider him not good enough? Google “hyperbole” and understand how ridiculous u sound.
How good is the EPL, really?
Its an honest question. It’s a very, very EXPENSIVE league, mind…but outside the top 5-6 teams, which are just absurdly overpaid with the exception of Southampton, is the level really that great?
I think it’s an extremely PRESSURIZED league, mind. Given the vast amounts of money thrown at these players the fan expectations and media pressure is just insane, and they’re just incredibly vicious and put guys in a fishbowl that I don’t know how any young player survives, to be honest with you. But the level of play just plain doesn’t impress me a ton, usually. It’s not as pretty technically as La Liga, not as tactical as Serie A, not as polished and precise and lockstep as the Bundesliga, doesn’t have near the flair of the Brazilian league.
Something’s off, with English soccer. The top teams import a bunch of highly-paid foreigners, but for whatever reason they’re doing a pretty crappy job of developing English players. I don’t know if it’s a general lack of athleticism in the English population or the aforementioned media/fan hostility but for whatever reason, as much soccer as they play and as much money as they spend on it, the English are just not that great at soccer right now…which is definitely borne out by the results – or lack thereof – their national team has gotten lately. They took second to the US in 2010 – and that was legit; we were better. They didn’t even make it out of group in Brazil…and that was legit, Costa Rica and Uruguay were better. And they win a lot of games against the likes of Malta and Wales 1-0 in qualifying.
Altidore was more than a good enough soccer player to be at Sunderland. I do question know if he had thick enough skin to make it in England…and IMHO a whole bunch of that starts off the field and has nothing to do with soccer. That’s not being a “man’s league”, that’s a social problem. There’s a weirdly hostile culture there that tends to eat its own, and almost seems to enjoy tossing soccer players off the sacrificial altar the moment they start struggling, and you gotta be just INCREDIBLY thick-skinned to gut through it.
The goal against Spain is not a great goal, it was a very meaningful goal for USA but let’s not get carried away, the goal was ugly, he struck the ball hard and to Casillas when he had the whole goal frame to chose, a bigger goalie would probably block it since Casillas had a whole hand on the ball. In the England game he missed an easy header right outside the 6 yard box. You want to bring up friendlies, go ahead, might as well bring up the LD hattrick in a 5-1 performance vs. Scotland.
And how well LD played the following game vs. Brazil.
“That tap in you mentioned? Jozy missed those while at Sunderland.” “those” would imply multiple missed sitters. please cite exact instances. being a person who watched 90% of Sunderland games over that 1.5 years, there were only 2 possible sitters with the Cardiff one not really being a sitter ( it wasn’t off service, Ki took a hard shot that deflected-spinning away- where jozy couldn’t get off a good rebound shot). the West ham sitter was his honey true sitter.
“If he had shown a sliver of competence at that level another team would’ve given him a chance. None did so off to a lesser league he went.”
you truly don’t understand the way transfers work. there were other teams that wanted him just not to the terms sunderland wanted. the teams wanted to take him on loan with buy option. sunderland wanted (needed) to receive either another player or money to buy another player in return. their only option for this was to transfer him for defoe. thats just business. had defoe played for another EPL team or euro team and been willing to trade him they would have done the same. the point being, there are way more factors to the things you’re just brushing off solely to make generalizations. jozy isn’t world class, no one’s really argued that so i don’t know whom these people are that you believe “have such a hard time accepting this fact. ”
he didn’t work for sunderland much as he wouldn’t work for other teams that struggle to pass and serve.
every time you make a hyperbolic statement, a baby seal dies…..
“Even then, the lack of scoring and missed sitters are not the reason he’s back in MLS, it was his lack of the most basic of football skills.”
source? because i’m pretty sure i could dig up a few quotes and stats that showed that jozy did pretty well at most everything besides scoring.
leaving all that aside, the “reason he’s back in MLS” is because toronto was willing to pay a sh!tload of money for him. there’s really no need to make anything up.
Source? You might want to sit down for this one….. My source is…… I watched the games. Dude had the first touch of a land mine, actually got shorter when he jumped, had the upper body strength of a 12 year old girl and the movement of Death Valley’s walking rock.
I also saw a stat that said Luis Suarez was one of the cleanest players in the EPL. There is a stat for everything but nothing’s as accurate as watching the games with an honest view.
“Dude had the first touch of a land mine, actually got shorter when he jumped, had the upper body strength of a 12 year old girl and the movement of Death Valley’s walking rock.”
oh thank god, when you said you watched the games, i thought i was going to have a rational debate with you, and that would’ve blown my mind. your hyperbole just saved my life (no exaggeration, seriously).
“There is a stat for everything but nothing’s as accurate as watching the games with an honest view.”
eh, “accurate”? that’s debatable. i agree that one needs to actually watch the games to get a full understanding of the statistics, but certain things might stand out when watching a game (especially through the filter of tv) that take on more importance than they should–such as a bad giveaway, when the overall passing rate is high.
as for your suarez argument: ‘cleanest player in the EPL’ is kind of a sketchy statistic, whereas team leader in assists (think jozy was tied with adam johnson last season) is not. but points for effort, i guess.
The only reason he scored that great goal is because he doesn’t get any service and has to create his own chances.
and because he hates Canada
Rob, when the gk is the one providing the service it only supports the “no service” claim…