When all was said and done, Lionel Messi and Argentina proved far too much for the U.S. Men’s National Team on Tuesday night.
Led by a goal and two assists from Lionel Messi, Argentina cruised past the USMNT, 4-0, in Tuesday night’s Copa America semifinal. Messi was joined on the scoresheet by Ezequiel Lavezzi and Gonzalo Higuain, the latter of whom contributed a brace.
It took just three minutes for Argentina to open up the USMNT defense, as a chipped ball up and over the backline was headed in by Lavezzi. Following a corner kick, Messi looped a ball up and over the backline. Caught in no man’s land, Brad Guzan was left helpless as Lavezzi chipped a header up and over for the game’s opening goal.
Another moment of magic from Messi came in the 32nd minute. Over a free kick from 30 yards out, Messi picked out the top right corner as the shot went over Guzan and into the side netting for the 2-0 lead.
Higuain added a third just four minutes into the second half, despite a point-blank save from Guzan. A ball over the top saw Higuain beat the offside trap, although Guzan parried away his initial shot. Higuain was left alone for the tap-in for his third goal of the tournament and Argentina’s third of the night.
Finally, Higuain’s fourth came in the 85th minute on yet another Messi assist. Driving own the left side, Messi simply slid a pass to Higuain on the back post, leaving a simple finish for the game’s final goal.
On the other end, the U.S. struggled to muster any sort of attack against the Argentinian backline. Playing without Jermaine Jones, Bobby Wood and Alejandro Bedoya, the USMNT struggled to maintain any sort of flow during limited times on the ball and failed to manage a single shot.
Forwards Chris Wondolowski and Clint Dempsey were left on an island up top in a match where Argentina never looked truly threatened. Argentinian goalkeeper Sergio Romero was never called upon to make a save, as Argentina dominated possession and chances throughout the 90 minutes.
Following the win, Argentina will take on the winner of Colombia and Chile in Sunday’s Copa America finale, while the U.S. will take on the loser in Saturday’s third-place game.
Crazy to think that Bradley chokes in almost every big game…What’s up with that? I understand this was a tough situation, but he just looked nervous and he shouldn’t be. Played really tight.
He was at his best at Roma, where he was under pressure everyday against top competition to make the starting lineup. During those game appearances, he played pretty well, without the high turnovers you see over the past 2 years.
Now in MLS, the guy runs around the midfield un-pressured and he looks at times like a world beater. Who is he competing at TFC for his spot (Will Johnson, Benoit Cheyrou: 35 y.o.) ?
At Roma, it was against Kevin Strootman, Daniele De Rossi, Miralem Pjanic.
Sadly the talent to develop and have a world class team is here…we are just looking in the wrong places…keep thinking the D1 player in the MLS draft are going to produce a world class team. The talewnt is in the low income areas but guess what since mommy and daddy cant afford the high price development academy teams they will never get a chance instead high area income kids with not even close nof the talent of the low income area kids will get a chance. That has been happening for years. The talent is here we just are to stupid to find it….money over talent is what runs the youth system in this country.
Agree with many of the comments above, especially how Bradley’s turnover rate seems to increase when he’s played higher on the field. The one stat that truly took the wind out of my sails:
U.S. Shots = 0
Think about that for a minute. We didn’t create a single shot (never mind on goal).
At least Mexico hung around until halt time. This one was over in 3 minutes
I knew we were going to be outclassed as soon as I saw Wondolousy in the starting lineup.
Give it up for Houston. 71,000 – idk what % were US fans but it was powerful support.
This whole tourament US fan support have been huge. Great to see cities across the country bringing big crowds.
To the game: Argentina brought a roster that is comprised of Champions League contenders, our best dream of the Europa league or MLS playoffs.. not surprised one bit. Just wish we didn’t look so bad, make so many costly mistakes and had one moment to celebrate.
It was a pro US stadium… probably 50% US, 20% Argentina, 20% neutrals, 10% neutrals cheering for Argentina.
It’s pretty simple. Kyle Beckerman is not an international player. When you pair him with Bradley in mid, and push Bradley forward Bradley is out of position. With this combination we have absolutely no chance at possession against a top 10 team. Wondolowski is also not an international player and Zusi doesn’t have international athleticism. The Key to our success in the tournament (offensively) had really been Wood being able to stretch the defense and hold up, Bedoya also stretching the defense and the link up play between Jones and Dempsey/Wood.
We found a good combination, but our bench is woefully shallow. Anyone saying he had any chance last night was fooling themselves.
I lose 4-0 when I play FIFA at a level higher than my ability. The lineup doesn’t usually matter much. That’s what it felt like watching this game. Argentina was a level better at every small detail of the game and we didn’t have the ability to adjust the level setting.
Lots of good comments here. Things I think we’ve learned from the tournament so far:
1) Wood is our present and future #9. He should be first choice over Altidore.
2) Zardes keeps improving and is actually one of our better players now(!)
3) Brooks and Cameron are a top quality pair of center backs.
4) Dempsey and Jones can still be game changers, but for how much longer?
5) Bradley is a turnover machine, no matter where he’s playing on the field.
6) Goal keeper is not the position of strength it once was. Time to try Horvath?
7) Pulisic has great potential but he’s not there yet.
8) The formula for beating the US is the same as it was in the last Gold Cup: press until we panic and turn the ball over.
One other thing we learned:
The USMNT is a WC knockout stage team at best, which is where we were when Klinsmann was promising to change things for the better if he was hired.
The talent at hand seems to be getting better and better yet, the tendency for performances to blow hot and cold seems more pronounced than before he arrived, often due to his own shortcomings – something he rarely, if ever, owns up to.
When he was publicly interviewing for the job in South Africa, he was talking about the big changes that a technical director would make and very little about the changes a manager would make.
As a technical director, I’m not too sure we could hire much better.
As a manager, well, his shortcomings were on full display last night.
As for the team and play on the field (last night), I was reminded of a Harlem Globetrotters vs. Washington Generals game I once saw.
I counted during one sequence of possession, Argentina strung together 22 passes. YES 22 !!!!
We struggled at times to even connect more than 3 passes. It is about technical ability and confidence on the ball. With low technique quality, these things will be very apparent when under pressure.
When nobody is pressuring you and you have the ball and space, you will look like world beaters (MLS), but once they start pressuring you …
SeaOtter… you are wrong. We can now impose our will on lesser teams, teams like Ecuador, Mexico, CR, mid-tier squads like England, Portugal…etc. This is a massive improvement from where we were under Bradley. Are we at the level of Germany, Argentina, France, Belgium, Colombia, Spain? nope. so we will continue losing to them until we get a golden generation… but to act like JK has not moved our program forward is lunacy.
Correct. Under bunker bob, we defended deep against the Spains and germans, and hit them on the counter. Effective against teams who will pressure you and leave lots if room in the back(something Argentina didnit leave us yesterday, even in a highline; my goodness gegenpressing is beautiful when you know how to do it). The problem were the minnows or decent squads, who didn’t give us that space. This is why we seemed to always play to the level of the team (we looked good against top teams, terrible against terrible teams).
Now, except notable exceptions, we can impose ourselves against teams who try to bunker us.
Disagree about Mexico though; I think they still got our number, and force us back to defend too much.
MLS players are simply not international level
Well, many are for CONCACAF. More accurate is to say that the vast majority of MLS players aren’t’ good enough to play at the top international level. Ciman started for Belgium one game in the Euros, there is a Uruguayan international in MLS, , Robbie Keane is still coming on as a substitute in the Euros, and Giovincho is good enough although he wasn’t called in. There are probably a couple others you could make a case for, but that’s a pretty good list to start.
I think the point is, if we want to be competitive vs the best national teams we have to play for and against the best club teams.
Our captain taking it easy in Canada does not set a good tone for the team.
Disappointing result, hard to watch, but……. hardly shocking. in the end, my impressions about individual players and the team hasn’t changed an iota. Nor my admiration for Argentina. Another class. Period.
We…. and Dempsey badly needed Wood tonight. the next best thing was Zardes. Wondo needs possession, balls fed into the box, scrambles. He has no speed, mediocre hold up play was a poor poor choice here. I wasn’t surprised at the line up, but…. thought our best chance at seeing any of the ball was w/ Bradley as a 6, Nagbe at CAM. Poor defense had nowhere to go with the ball when they won it. At our best w/ Bedoya, Jones and Wood, we represent ourselves much better, but still probably lose 3-0 or something of the sort. Ultimately, I feel better about our program than I did 6 mos ago. Think we did better in this tourney than I thought possible when it was announced.
I agree that we played much better in this tournament than feared. It is good from time-to-time to play a much superior team to shine the light on your weaknesses. I do not think any or even all of Jones, Wood and Bedoya would have changed the game much.
Say what you will about the technical ability of the USA, they did not cave in like Mexico did against Chile.
I liked the effort Pulisic put in even though he mostly could not prevail against the defenders. The only player
I was really, really disappointed in Johnson. He began the game looking scared and never seemed to get comfortable, mostly hitting one time long balls to no one and mostly looking like he feared the ball being anywhere nearby.
I thought Bradley tried to do too much and that was bound to lead to errors. He is better when he has a well-defined role, else he seems to see too many things to do and tries to do them all.
Finally Messi was simply sublime.
Yes the players were outmatched – but the tactics were worse.
An adjustment was needed after the first goal that goal (which was a killer). Deuce and Wondow were left chasing their back 4 and there was way too much space between the lines. We needed to push another player forward to have any effectiveness in hunting the ball, and push up the lines to get more compact.
Also, we missed wood the most for his ability to get physical and work defensively from the front. He is very good at that.
Essentially Argentina used our game plan from Bolivia and Guatemala in Columbus against us. Send the FBs down the wings have the 3 forwards make diagonal runs through the box and then center it to the CMs filling the empty space. If you lose the ball press hard on the first two or three passes to force a long ball that your big CB wins. Then once you win the ball play your CBs wide so you can’t be pressed without wearing down your aging forwards. They then can easily pass to said speedy FBs because the other teams FBs have to respect the speed and play off or funnel the ball through the DM who drops into the empty space between the two CBs. Of course Mascherono does this a lot better than Bradley.
We tried to counter with somewhat Mexico’s strategy they almost beat them with in Texas last year, clog the middle and outlet it down the wings. Unfortunately Chicharito is a much better outlet than Dempsey and Wondo, and I’m not so sure playing a 5 man back line wouldn’t have dealt better with the Argentine attack, but hard to put in a new defense in a few days. And Argentina missed a ton of chances in that game that they didn’t miss tonight.
Kinda felt like he started Wondo and Beckerman as a kind of send-off. Like, ok, we’re not going to win and you guys have earned the honor of starting this game.
Which is think is fucking ridiculous.
He played Beckerman because we were playing essentially for a 1-0 off a set piece or hold for PKs and Wondo because he might have poached that one cheap goal or hit a PK. To think any coach would go oh well we’ve lost this semi final of a major tournament before it started so I might as well play these two vets is silly.
That game counted? Looked like an Argentina open training session. So disappointed. The jig was up the moment the team sheet came out. Klinsmann is a motivator not a tactician. This is a recurring theme of him not being able to properly pick a lineup. 4-5-1 would’ve been the better option. The managers number one job is to put his team in the strongest position to win the game, no matter who’s eligible to play or not. That being said, this was the best Argentina team in 3 decades. They’re unplayable in this form. Still hugely disappointing from a US perspective and the manager did them no favors.
Real simple. FAIL game plan. FAIL lineup (Wondo/Beckerman??? really) FAIL preparation! We cannot play MB up high! We needed another attacking Mid to start! We didn’t need to tip toe into the matchup handing over far too much humble respect. We used none of our free yellow cards to be physical which could have possibly helped us get around the ball better. MB reverted to his incredible failure to pass the ball once again in a bigger than life game. Klinnsman talked the talk (we’re going to take it to them, to attack and push and pressure them) but didn’t walk the walk, chickening out and coming out passive. The Wondo/Beckerman FAIL, cost us 3 goals and a wasted hour, chasing and kissing Argentina’s backsides! I place this all on Klinnsman! Then adding insult to injury, he spent the post game presser kissing the opponent! You suck Juergen!
Just betting we come out on fire Saturday in Arizona! With a full roster and lots of personal shame!
I watched the Univision broadcast and Marcelo Balboa was commentating. Two or three times he lamented that the game would have been different if we had Bobby Wood.
I mean, I would have preferred Wood and like what I’ve seen from him. But I hardly think Argentina would have been terrified at the prospect of Bobby Wood in the lineup.
That’s where you don’t understand his importance. It’s not about intimidating Argentina with Wood, it’s about his ability to maintain Posession and create space as we transition from the mid-field to the final 3rd.
Wood has more than stepped up to his opportunity that Altidore’s absence provided. If I’m in the Nats coaching staff, Wood has moved up to the #1 slot and I continue to find ways to develop our attack around him.
Its that he is better at holding up play than Wondo. Too many times Wondo either didn’t win the header or got the ball tackled away on the pass. A lot of the time it was terrible service, but Wood is so much more athletic to be able to keep it once or twice, then Dempsey and Zardes can run into the empty space behind the CBs.
Hell, the biggest problem was that we hardly ever got the ball up field for the strikers. Dempsey didn’t do squat either and that’s hardly because of his lack of quality. I didn’t like the selection of Wondo and wouldn’t have done it and Wood is certainly better, but he wouldn’t even make the top 50 players in Argentina. Argentina scrimmages against better players, in most cases, than we have playing for our national team. If Wood were Argentinian, their attitude would probably be, well, if he scores a dozen goals or more next year in the Bundesliga, maybe we’ll take a look at him. Folks, remember, he hasn’t played in anything tougher than the German SECOND division. Diego Valeri is, in my opinion, probably the best midfielder in MLS. He has a total of 4 caps for Argentina and I think they were all friendlies. The talent gap between us and them is enormous.
Zardes seemed to rise to the challenge and seems to be getting better as he faces better competition. Now will you believe me when I say he is a good player? I really would like to see him play in Europe, though. Of all our MLS players, I think he would benefit the most.
I agree that he got better as the tournament went on.
He still leaves me with wanting that last “element” to be a part of his game. Sometimes it’s his touch, sometimes it’s his vision to make a pass, and other times he has Wondo-like moments fumbling to make a shoot on target.
I’m not wise enough to know if him playing in Europe and practicing in that environment is the missing link but I do know time is of the essence and the sooner, the better.
Sidenote: I’m also in the crowd preferring to see him up top, but it’s hard to argue against his placement given his relentless motor and ability to help the defense.
I was harsh on Zardes, but he has gotten better as the tournament has gone on. I think a light went on and he has finally figured out the level of concentration needed at this level. I hope he continues to grow, but he also should not be a lock starter for every game, we need to see options on the wings, as depth is our biggest issue right now.
Zardes doesn’t have the technical ability to play in a top 5 league in Europe as a midfielder or the goal scoring ability to play as a forward. He’s also 24 and teams won’t sign a guy who’s basically developmental player with little room for growth. I’m guessing you’re a Galaxy fan if you believe that.
I don’t think anyone has said Zardes could play in a top 5 league, but how many Americans have? Turkey, Netherlands, Belgium, the Championship could all be places he could play that would at least be marginally better than MLS.
Turkey and Belgium? Haha I doubt he has any motivation to play in those leagues. He might as well stay in MLS. Also I don’t see him doing anything than riding the bench on a Championship side. It’s a higher level than most American fans want to admit.
Regarding Zardes and his potential and possibly playing abroad, here is something from the mlssoccer website from 2012 after he signed with the Galaxy: “The speedy, technically gifted attacker is widely considered the top college player entering MLS next season, is a veteran of training stints with Freiburg and Nürnberg in Germany and with Liverpool’s Academy in England, and won praise from then-West Bromwich Albion (and now England national team) manager Roy Hodgson after a stirring performance against the English club in a friendly last summer for the Ventura County Fusion. He chose to sign with LA over reported offers from Freiburg and Nuremberg.”
First off, all respect to Argentina, they are the best in the world and they played like it. We were never going to win tonight the way they came out, but I really was disappointed in the way we came out both in lineup and in mentality.
That was basically Belgium 2014 all over again. Bring in Beckerman and Wondo, bunker while giving the other team too much respect, Bradley looking lost, Demps looking for the ball. The difference was that Howard kept that game within reach and this time Argentina was clinical and Guzan was a bit off (as everyone was). Sad we did the same thing two years later.
The biggest takeaway from this game is the poor bench selections for this tourney and poor team management throughout. Wouldn’t it have been nice to have Morris and Williams to come in for Wood and Jones? How could you bring in Birnbaum instead of Besler or Orozco, who have at least played in the last two weeks? I really hope we have more young, hungry options in the coming months.
Overall the team played well in this Copa, and the defense has come far and should be solid going forward. Brooks and Cam are solid, Yedlin and FJ worked well although I am not so happy with FJ. He either needs to be forward more or I would rather have Besler in the LB spot for his defense. I am worried about Bradley, who did not have a good game or even a really good moment all tournament. Solid, sure, but nothing of what we expect from him. Jones and Demps are warriors, we will see them for the coming games, we will see what happens next year. I have more thoughts but that is all for now. Disappointing end to a fun run in this tournament. Hope for all the bench guys to get in for the next game.
I hadn’t thought much about Danny Williams. Yes, what a better option he would have been compared to Beckerman. Beckerman does what he does, but just doesn’t have the mobility to be effective against elite players.
The only point I’d quibble with in your comment is that Bradley was solid. He had more inexplicable giveaways–often in terrible positions setting up goals or chances–than In can even recall in this tournament. I really cannot explain what has happened to his game over the past few years. I know it is popular to say that he has suffered for being in MLS, and maybe there’s a tiny bit of truth to that, but I don’t really think it explains it all.
Yeah, i was being nice because he is our captain, but the more I think about it the more annoyed that he just does not show up in big games anymore, and he seems more angry than driven. Time for a change, especially if the back four is going to be so solid?
My totally baseless opinion is that Bradley is too focused on being a super serious captain/general/leader of the team. Michael, you’re just one of the boys who happens to get an armband. Lighten up. Focus on your game. Make a decent pass or two. You’re a good player. You don’t have to be the savior of US Soccer.
Danny Williams is so inconsistent that’s why I think he gets passed over. Yes, he might play better than Bradley or Beckerman one game and then be nonexistent the next two. I don’t know if its attitude or ability, but coaches like to know what they are going to get.
Are you saying Bradley has been predictable and quality? Or that you want to go with the predictable Beckerman who has proven he cannot match top level talent? I am not saying Williams is the savior, but putting Kyle in was suicide.
USA just doesn’t have the talent. Plain and simple. There isn’t one player on our team who could get in the Argentine side.
Thank you. It is as simple as that. While the USMNT pool has grown,….the quality of the players has not. Think back to 2002. There is no Reyna or O’Brien or McBride or Donovan on this team. Those four players alone are leaps and bounds better than the players on this roster.
This team overachieved to get to the semi-final.
I just got home from the game. Ok, so being realistic, I never thought we would win the game… but when I checked my phone from the fanzone and saw wondo… I almost puked my 3 beers up. But, and I say this honestly… I still would have rather eaten that plate of dogshit I promised Razor if Wondo could have put a goal in.
However… once the game started… we just looked cowed. I don’t know if the TV showed it, but the team just didn’t come to play. I watched Wondo JOG for 45 minutes. I mean, if you are wondo… you know you are only getting 45 minutes. The least you could do if fing spring for the entire half. but no, he jogged around. The whole bloody team jogged around. It was piss poor.
Every time our guys touched the ball they played kick ball. There was only one stretch of possession (30th minute until Argentina’s 3rd goal)… and then there were two other times a US player fought to hold onto possession (zardes in like the 60th minute and Pulisic a little after that). passes out of bounds, not pressing, not running, it was like the USA of old. Which is annoying because we didn’t even play that way against Colombia.
But, it may be a statement of who we have behind our starting eleven. Zusi was silent. Bradley basically gave Argentina a goal. Beckerman… god your sole job is to kick someone and you can’t even find it in yourself to get a yellow card?!? Also… you can’t both start beckerman AND ignore messi and Higuain… AND not possess the ball at all. I mean come on. We will qualify for the world cup… we have enough quality to do that. the question is whether, over the next two years we can raise the bar beyond Ecuador and to Argentina’s/Germany’s/France’s level so we can realistically challenge for a WC quarters/semis.
Frankly I hope so, but it is not at all clear because Pulisic is not yet there… clearly. We have about 9 guys that can play up at Argentina’s level… and no backups. We need about 5 more. Also, Guzan… he played himself out of a premier league job with that first goal. He was totally caught in no-mans- land ( and lest you think I am being too tough on him… he played terribly the second half too. god he looked lije a fish out of water when he had to come out and play the ball. Time for Horvath (or maybe not if he isn’t ready).
Finally, I think everyone needs to sit back and realize just how good a job JK has done with the players he has (I totally get his casting about for players over the past 2 years…). The man has no depth and barely 11 guys who are international caliber (2 of whom are goalies on the decline). He needs some folks to step up and challenge themselves and to this point, everyone is coming back ot the USA like a bunch of [insert pejorative term here].
Finally, at least I got to see Messi play in person in my lifetime (and he scored a goal). So I guess I can sleep happy waiting for the Colombia re-match.
“We have about 9 guys that can play up at Argentina’s level”
I mean… I know that on any given day things can happen and if we get some breaks, we could beat Argentina (I’m guessing one out of every 10 tries, maybe). But we do not have 9 guys who can play at their level. Not one player on our team gets anywhere close to their squad (Brooks is the closest because they sometimes have issues at centerback).
This is just nonsense. It’s amazing what having two world class players will do for your image (Mascherano and Messi). Without those two that team would be top 10 or 15, but hardly number one. Obviously Di Maria falls in that category as well when he’s on the field. Messi was involved in EVERY goal for crying out loud. They hardly created a chance that he wasn’t involved in.
Shaggie–last season Higuain set the record for most goals ever in Serie A, 36, and Aguero was tied for second most goals in the EPL at 24, one behind Harry Kane. They are both world class.
Brooks, cameron, fabjo, bradley, jj, Guzan, Howard, Yedlin (maybe) and Pulisic (if not today, then eventually)… and Wood would never make their team because of their ridiculously stacked at FW, but he can play at that level (I think)
Brooks and Cameron can make that squad, due to the mentioned lack of talent at that position, especially Brooks cause of his age. FabJo, maybe as a fullback, because he sure as hell isn’t getting on as a winger. But even then, there fullbacks are damn good as well.
And that’s about it.
At the end of the day Bob Bradley got pretty much the same results with equal talent. We’re about the same level we’ve been at for the last 2 decades or more, probably a round of 16 exit.
This is depressingly accurate. The reason there aren’t a lot of Americans getting playing time in the top leagues in the world isn’t due to some anti-American bias. We don’t produce the players.
no. Bradley never had the team playing as well as they played in our first 4 games this tournament.
What?! Bradley limped out of the group stage of the confederate cup on 3 points, and 3 way tie, a tournament that the knockout is immediately a semifinal. He also limped out of quite possibly the easiest group we will ever be a part of.
Also, talent level isn’t the same. Our talent pool is larger, yes, and our bench options may be better but Bradley’s best XI were far superior to ours. The cream of the crop was creamier back then.
@mac
“Bradley’s best XI were far superior to ours”
not getting into the bradley v klinsmann comparison, but that is absolutely not true.
No way we have 9 players who can play at Argentina’s level. I would say Brooks, Fabian and Jones when he was younger. Zardes may end up there, as maybe Pulisic and Wood will, too. Dempsey in his prime might have qualified. Maybe someday Yedlin, too, but he still is seriously lacking in skill. Our best players are or were regulars in top 5 leagues. Their team is peppered with international stars who play for some of the top teams in the world. Aguero, who didn’t even play, had 29 goals for Manchester City. So, basically, we have two players who might make their roster right now.
bradley is as good as mascherano, pulisic makes their roster, both our goalies… and bam, you have 9. (I am counting Yedlin) maaaaybe wood… and Jones even today, the way he played this tournament, he is at the level… BTW, that doesn’t mean we win with those guys… just that they don’t get run off the field like it was nothing.
Bradley is not as good as Mascherano. Seriously… one was/is a key player on one of the greatest club squads ever assembled, as well as a key player in one of the most storied national football programs, who are heading to their third straight final of a major tourney.
Just stop with that. One of the things holding us back is deluding ourselves into thinking our players are better than they are; thinking if we just recreate Bradley, clone more Donovans and Dempseys, we will get there. That’s not good enough.
I don’t want pulsic to be as good as donovan. He needs to exceed him. If he becomes as good as donovan, then our development has failed, because arguably the best prospect to come through our program since donovan/ almost 20 years, is not better.
Mac… I know Mascherano’s game… and I saw Bradley play for Roma. He is as good as Mascherano. Put Bradley on Argentina and FC Barcelona… and tell him to just pass the ball a bit (against teams mostly bunkering and so not pressing)… he is just as good. Mascherano was good not great everywhere.
BTW… Bradley has declined greatly since coming to MLS, but at Roma he had the vision, engine, and passing skill equivalent to Mascherano.
Fair enough, if we’re comparing each players peak career moments (not sure why you would do that; taking small moments of our players careers, and defining their talent and legacy by them. World football is littered with players who tore it up for a year or two, before fading away.)
And that’s also fair to say about how against most clubs, barca and mascherano wouldn’t break a sweat. Just like bradley imposes himself on mighty guatemala.
But how about ucl? How about the time masherano helped sweep aside fergie’s man United with ease in 2011?
Hell, what about his time in Liverpool, establishing himself as one of the best holding mids? That amazing comeback against Milan in 2007?
Bradley could very well step into barca and liverpool, and play the same way mascherano does against the granadas or sheffield uniteds. But can he do it against the bayerns, the madrids?
Im sorry if I think he can’t. If he could, he would.
Didn’t address the last bit about his time at roma… agree competely. His time and play there made it seem like he just might break through into being included in the conversation along the likes of a masherano-level player. Unfortunately, he took the money (I think he could’ve left for a PSV-type ucl club, or a successful EL club like Sevilla; at his peak, Bradley was just as good, if not better technically than Krychowiak, who has won it twice.)
So you are saying they ran around Beckerman like he was a traffic cone? Huh, couldn’t see that one coming! And yeah, I kept yelling for Wondo to runat someone, but he had Dempseyitis of the legs.
Glad you got to see the master play, sounded like a great crowd all night.
Harsh on Pulisic who basically came into the game 3-0 down (they scored two mins into the 2nd half) to be the savior and inject life into the team. He had zero help from his teammates in retaining possession and when he realized that he tried to take players on one on one. He didn’t succeed obviously but still showed some confidence that veterans like Zusi and Wondo failed to show.
Watching all of his appearance with Dortmund, he is ready for this level, but its a tough ask against Argentina who had the comfort of a two goal lead.
yeah. Agreed. He can’t be our savior just yet. but, you know… he is only 17 and had no help.
How was the crowd, announcers kept saying it was so loud, but it didn’t come across that way on TV. Seemed like a lot of casual fans that bought tickets to see Messi and then put on the red white and blue when we made it too, but were hoping as much for Messi magic than a US win.
It was super quiet most of the game. It was a pro US crowd, but there was nothing to cheer about.
Klinsman is responsible for having wondo and Beckermen on the roster. Klinsman is responsible for thinking zusi could be more than a 2nd half set of fresh legs. The players he a bad game but klinsman set them up to fail with that roster and his choices to replace the missing players. Explain why wondo was on this team instead of Morris or even Aguedelo. Explain why nagbe isn’t used as a replacement for jones? Why is perry kitchen on this roster?
I completely agree with you about Wondo. In fact, I was so against his inclusion that I offered to eat a plate of dogshit if he scored. That being said, Morris was not here because JK is letting him acclimate to the professional game by playing a full season. Agudelo… not sure he is better than Wondo. I think Nagbe didn’t replace Jones because JK thought Beckerman might provide some defensive bite. I thought that too. It was embarrasing when even the Argentina fans were suprised at how Beckerman wasn’t actually kicking Messi. His sole job was to Kick Messi until he gets a yellow… then push him after that… and he couldn’t even bring himself to go out and get a yellow card. lame. He can’t play at this level… he is done. Why is Kitchen on the roster? He is probably our second/third best DM (depending on your view of Beckerman).
And before you start pulling random names out of a hat and asking why Polster or LaBrocca aren’t on the roster… its because they aren’t good enough. Shit, Morris is barely good enough. Wood is barely good enough… Bradley, JJ, Bedoya… they are all barely good enough. Our whole team is barely good enough. Then you took away 3 of the best barely good enough guys. When JK says the young guys have to earn it… he means it. JJ is still the best, even at 34. which says something, even if we don’t like it. Wondo is still probably our 3rd best forward… which again, says something even if we don’t like to hear it.
We were outclassed.
I’ve never thought Nagbe was very good but he did really well tonight. On the other hand… Michael Bradley has given up so many terrible turnovers in bad positions this tournament. What happened to him? I just don’t get it. He was really bad.
Beckerman accidentally wore his concrete boots out there. The difference between him and Jermaine Jones out there is huge.
Still just as excited about Pulisic but Argentina made him look like a 17 year old playing with grown men.
Zusi did alright, kind of, for what he does, but his upside is just not that high.
Others have said all there is to say about Wondo. I feel bad for the guy but… come on. In what universe was his skill set going to have the chance to shine in a game where we have to sit back and cede all possession.
Fabian Johnson, Beckerman, and Guzan combined for the horrible sequence of the night on that first goal.
Hope Levezzi’s not hurt to bad. That was a nasty spill.
Ughhh.
Yeah I meant Zardes, not Nagbe, at the top.
Wondo and Beckerman have no future with USNT…but Klinsmann will continue with them.
Klinsmann should have ditched both after the Brazil WC. Beckerman can be decent emergency option but only if the opponents are CONCACAF quality.
Both are CONCACAF level players. Williams and Kitchen have a future, while Wondo could only scored C or D level national teams, and ignoring youth like Morris and Arriola for “World Cup failure Wondo”: is killing progress for USNT.
Also, how far behind is CONCACAF from being even a decent confederation in world soccer? Two best teams crash out of a regional tournament 11-0… (Albeit against 2 excellent teams, but still…)
How long has it been since Bradley had a good game for USMNT?
Paraguay and Ecuador when 11 v 11 and against Costa Rica.
Ha ha ha..That is the point. He is not good enough to raise the USA to an elite level. Let us all be realistic here, this was a good tournament but we lost to two better teams. Colombia and Argentina. That tells you who we are.
Why doesn’t he go to Brazil and get some technical training on how to handle the ball. His (ball) technique for a national team level player is bad. If he can handle the ball like a Brazilian player, his confidence on the ball will improve and won’t be turning over the ball too often when under pressure.
Heck, spend your off season playing futsal everyday and practice handling the ball 15 mins every day and it is guaranteed he will improve.
On a positive note, Yedlin can run as fast as Messi.
On a negative note, was anyone wearing a white jersey tonight as skilled with their feet as Argentina’s keeper?
Faster, in fact.
Messi had a 10 yard head start on him and Yedlin beat him to the ball.
First things first. Guzan panics and makes poor decisions. Time to look elsewhere. Maybe Hamid, maybe someone else. But I just don’t think Guzan can carry the load.
Watching Villa, Guzan gets mentally broken easy, he can make great saves but after one or 2 goes in then he falls apart. I don;t know if that was so much the problem tonight but I have seen where that is a problem for him.
At the end of the day not a surprising result. Bummed on the starting line-up and shades of Belgium in ’14 I. his game.
I’m still and have been a Klinsi supporter. He got it wrong with Beckerman and Wondo on this one. That may have been on purpose as it’s an obvious scapegoat opportunity. Not a shock they were our first two subbed off.
Bradley had a rough game. His supporting cast was disappointing, but he panics in critical moments, much like the rest of the team. Not his best outing but he’s still a key player.
Zardes, never thought I’d say this, was probably our best player tonight. Cameron was probably number two. Brooks was fine, got caught on the 3rd goal, but that goal stems from giving up Posession in midfield.
Given we were missing 3 starters who play at a very, very high level relative to their replacements, the result seems about right. Crash to reality for sure.
Those who thought Pulisic would be a savior (let alone a starter) were introduced to reality. He looked every bit of 17 tonight and definitely looked a little gassed. That said, he absolutely has what it takes to succeed at the highest levels and I look forward to watching him develop.
Lastly folks, the sky isn’t falling: we lost to the # 1 team in the world with arguably the best player of all time; in his prime and highly motivated to leave his stamp on history.
A rough result but all things considered not the end of the world.
I know all the sky-is-falling crowd are going to pile on USMNT program. I’m old enough to have seen us struggle to win a qualifier in front of less than 4,000 fans at Soccer Park. Therefore, I’ve learned not to get too high or too low on USA results (my favourite team of all teams I pull for). Here’s why we shouldn’t panic: (1) Jermaine Jones not in the line up had a huge ripple effect; (2) Zusi now is not Zusi of 4 years ago, we needed Bedoya or anyone else; (3) Jurgen probably should not have started Wondo. Wondo is fine when you have the bulk of possession and you need to nick a goal or you are getting counters. We had neither situation tonight; (4) Michael Bradley was God-awful. How many passes did he complete before the 70th minute? He runs his arse off, but marks no-one. The result was that Argentina had so much time on the ball and we couldn’t hold possession. Jones mitigates some of the first problem. (5) Bobby Wood showed some real potential this tournament. Let’s hope he builds on his current form at HSV. He has the potential to be a better version of Dempsey. It will be nice to have him in the future if continues on his current trajectory. (6) Speaking of Dempsey, when our midfield sucks wind, he quickly becomes disinterested. Can we think of one good thing he did tonight other than putting an elbow into a guy’s throat? (7) Zusi was brutal.(8)Fabian Johnson– easily his worst showing of the tournament.
Keep in mind, Argentina is playing very well right now. Individuals are putting the team above themselves and Messi and Higuain are in great form.
Going back to the USA: it is unlikely that the perfect storm of 1-8 will all come together simultaneously as they did tonight, thankfully. Although we got thumped, I don’t think we suck, but the gap between us and the one of the top teams in the world is still pretty big.
I agree. The United States is not really that bad but there is still a gap between the USA and the elite. Overall, Klinsman has done a good job.
Not surprised we lost, but very disappointed today. Starting Wondo and Beckerman was a joke and was a safe move by a clueless manager. And after hearing the sideline report that Klinsmann put up a message that this was the “biggest week of their career,” he clearly psyched out the team.
Out side of the team’s psychology, Bradley was very disappointing tonight. He has looked poor since the move away from Roma and he is nowhere near the player he was in the early Klinsmann days.
Hard to say much more than that right now.
I think Bradley’s a great #6 for this team, but push him forward, and he loses what class he has. And you have to push him forward if you foolishly bring in Beckerman. Unfortunately this team in the last couple of years plays as good (or as poorly) as Bradley. When he’s off (and he is often off when played out of position), we just can’t retain any possession…
Sorry Dave, I don’t think he’s a great #6 for this team and I don’t think JK thinks he is either. Otherwise, why isn’t he playing there against top competition? I think you could maybe make the argument for simply a more defensive lineup, but why is JK basically wasting a sub by putting on Birnbaum and taking out Beckerman? In my mind it’s because he didn’t trust Bradley to play that role in this game. If he puts Nagbe in there and moves Bradley back it would’ve been a much more logical sub.
Many people will call out Birnbaum (who admittedly had a brain fart) but his error was blatantly set-up in a no-win situation by Bradley passing the ball in the area where four Argentinean players were.
I think many people forget the term back pass-Bradley for the amount of times he puts his defenders in uncomfortable situations rather than advancing the ball or clearing it when necessary.
As someone said: When Bradley is off/performing poorly, it’s really bad. Also, these excuses that he’s being played out of position is the reasoning for his performances need to halt immediately too. He was played where he prefers (and where everyone was calling for him to) throughout the tournament and was unimpressive more times than he shined.
Bradley has been underperforming all tournament. His passing has been off and his passion and drive has turned into frustration and anger. Put Beckerman and Bradley together and you might as well hand the ball to Messi and say go, have fun!
This is spot on. Bradley is the 6 but klinsman pushed him out of there to replace jones as a box to box with Beckermen coming in. the problem with that is it changes where Bradley receives the ball and he is often isolated and pressured with No one showing for him leading to turn overs. Look at the Ecuador game and fist half of Paraguay. When both those games were 11 v 11 Bradley was doing everything you want a 6 to do, harassing the opponents passing lanes, being a release for the defenders and springing attacks with accurate passing out of the back.
How long have people been watching Bradley that now are frustrated with his turnovers. It has been going on for quite some time. Short memory? Go back to Brazil ’14 and specifically the Portugal game.
Is he bad? No, he is fine for MLS and CONCACAF but when under pressure against top level
competition, he’s just average and not the hyped up player most people think he is.
He shouldn’t be starting and we should see guys like Danny Williams given another opportunity.
Also Wondo, Zusi, and Beckerman are all MLS quality but hope people didn’t expect them to be better than the starting Argentine players. Those Argentine players are important players for their club teams, whereas Wondo, Zusi, Beckerman couldn’t even start for top teams outside of MLS.
It was over when Wondolousy was selected for starting 11….
While I can’t say for sure that starting Nagbe or Pulisic would have made a difference, I CAN say for sure that starting Beckerman and Wondo was never going to yield a good result. Beckerman just sucks – Nagbe doesn’t have the “experience,” but there is so much more risk-reward with him than a player like Beckerman.
we weren’t going to win either way, so why not start building something now
This was my philosophy from the jump.
That’s my thought – and if we were going to win it was going to be because of flashes of brilliance from young players…Beckerman and Wondo aren’t capable of that, they’ve had their chance and have proven otherwise. We don’t truly know what Nagbe and Pulisic are capable of – Klinsmann thought he could beat Argentina with out the spark of the unexpected and he was proved dead wrong.
+1
I don’t know that starting Pulisic and Nagbe would have resulted in a better score line, but it certainly wouldn’t have been worse. I’ve never been a Beckerman fan until that last WC, and if he gets some consolation thank you minutes at the end of a winning third place game, I’m fine with that. But otherwise, let’s never again call up Beckerman or Wondo.
And no-one seems to be talking much about Guzan. Howard would have saved the first and probably the second goal (as amazing as it was). Then it’s a much different game…
This is why I’m glad I drink, Micheal Bradley is terrible. He and zardes are the reason why it was a 4-0 game. Terrible all game long and so many give aways
Higuain, Messi, Lavezzi, Mascherano…. And you blame those two. I dint understand.
Agree on Bradley. I’m sorry, but anyone who says playing in MLS has not caused Bradley to regrest has not been watching. Against minnows and mid-tier, he continues to show up. But against elite teams, it’s night and day.
As to Zardes, disagree. He is frustrating as hell, because he does so many things right and surprisingly has a high soccer IQ, but all of that doesn’t matter when his first touch fails him EVERYTIME! Seriously, if he even had yedlin first touch, he’d be at the least a good striker in an elite league.
The Argentinian players knew where the US players where going to pass the ball before the US players knew themselves. The only time they were caught off guard was when the US players would mis-bit the ball and end up by accident kicking to another teammate away from the play. What a complete mismatch, glad for US to get that rare competitive match test- now we know USMNT is still a third tier national team, as has been the case since 1994
Thats bs and you know it. US was 4th or 5th tier at best in 94. We got lucky and had home crowd there. Weve certainly made progress since then. 3rd tier is about right for now though.
US got out of the group in 1994 and lost to eventual champion Brazil; Then beat Brazil in 1995 and finished fourth in Copa America, that took place in South America…
this team didn’t even make it to the Finals of the Gold Cup last year
Don’t know how you measure your tiers, but I think we are close to second tier. Making the semis is a pretty good achievement and when you look at our results in the last two World Cups, this tournament and the 2009 Confederation Cup, we’re doing okay. Certainly better than several other teams with a much better pedigree.
i would agree we are closer to second tier, maybe the bottom of that tier but there nonetheless. We get out of our group at every tournament and have a chance to win knockout games, but no chance to actually win the whole thing. I think that is second tier in my book.
first tier teams are WC contenders every time, they often fire their coaches after “only” QF appearances at World Cups or failures to win regional championships- Brazil, Germany, Argentina, Spain until recently, France, Italy from time to time-
The second tier are teams that put up a fight but lose more than win or tie against the best teams, like Colombia, Belgium, etc…”dark horse” World Cup contenders when their Golden Generation comes through-expected to progress to round two
third tier teams would be underdogs in any given game against the top two tiers and hail the achievement or getting out of the group stage at WC or getting to semis of Copa America on home soil
-Manager: horrible match
-Players: horrible match
To a man, some of the worst performances I’ve seen of individual players since they put on a USA kit. To a manager, his subs (as someone pointed out) indicated blatant errors in selection.
We played the best team in the world with (likely) the best player to ever play.,.and it looked like it. There’s gulf in talent is immense and the selection certainly didn’t help. Our starting front six were all MLS players…and it looked like it.
I said it before the tournament began I believed we should have utilized every match to play young players and expose them to this level, rather than having some misguided belief we could challenge for the trophy. With that said, the team got a lot farther than I expected and certainly a lot farther than the usual negative chorus who claimed Klinsmann should be fired if we didn’t get out of the group stage.
Klinsmann had a bad match, there’s no denying that. I also acknowledge that it’s incredibly easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback and forget the amount of cries (on this very board) minutes leading up to the first match for the likes of Jones to be dropped, or for Dempsey to be dropped for example – two players (who along with Brooks) were our best players throughout.
I didn’t think this tournament mattered, and thought it was a great opportunity to give young players a chance. However, there were a lot of people who appeared to believe it mattered a great deal and believed it would serve as an instrument to remove Klinsmann from his post. Playing against the greatest player of all time and the #1 team in the world amplifies every mistake made on all levels and that was on display tonight.
There’s enough acknowledgement to go around on both sides. Acknowledging mistakes and acknowledging success. Ignoring one while focusing on the other leaves no room for a real discussion.…they won their group and got to the Semi-Finals. There’s a lot to take away and learn from and also be proud of.
…just don’t call up Wondolowski again, please. We’re all on the same page with that.
Whether this fan or that fan thought it mattered, it mattered to the manager and to the players. You can’t say to Clint Dempsey or Jermaine Jones sorry I know this is the Copa, but you can’t play in it on home soil because we want to have camp cupcake 2.0.
Perhaps not for others, but there’s a huge distinction from utilizing the tournament to integrate young players and having an entire Starting XI be green.
I never implied or suggested the latter so that statement falls short of applying to anything I’ve said previously or presently.
The purpose for US Soccer and Jurgen Klinnsman was to win, not prepare for the World Cup. Playing young players however many you meant by players would have meant being knocked out in the group stage and having the tournament declared a failure by most of the soccer junkies and the casual fan. The truth is what young player showed any sense that they belonged in this tournament during their club season or wasn’t coming off a serious injury?
Klinsmann wears two hats: Manager and Technical Director. He very much is responsible for both, and not one exclusively. For better or worse, that’s what he’s paid for: short term and long term objectives which underlines my point even more so.
Soccer junkies and casual fans opinion have proven to be ramblings of lunacy more times than not and should concern no one of any consequential decision making.
Asking what young player showed they belonged while responding to someone saying young players should have actually been given the chance to play completely misses the point and comes off as if you didn’t read my post or didn’t understand the premise.
Good comment and we’re on the same page with Wondo. Add BeckerDreads to that line too.
I, too, thought we should use this tournament for the young players, but Klinsmann chose differently. It’s possible that the higher ups wanted us to take it seriously and get as far as possible. No way of our knowing what dynamics were going on there. I have said previously that Klinsmann’s goal of reaching the semis seemed unrealistic to me. So, when you look at the team’s performance in its totality, we should be satisfied. Anyone who thinks that tinkering with the lineup would have produced different results weren’t watching the game and/or know little about the game of soccer. If we had played mistake free, maybe we lose only 2-0, but I doubt if we could score on them if we played several games.
I think with being a host Conmebol would have taken offense if we brought a younger less experienced squad. Remember we did just that in 2009 and lost all three games and Conmebol didnt invite us back since then. I think USSoccer wants to start competing in this tournament regularly and so we had to show up, especially as host. Still maybe wecould have worked the younger guys but those red cards probably changed those plans.
Two of the changes JK made (wondo and KB) were complete busts. But that probably says more about our lack of depth. Sure, Wood and JJ would have fared slightly better, but not by much. Argentina is just on a different level.
I was as pissed as everyone else when I saw wondo in the lineup, but let’s be honest, Pulisic looked out of depth out there. Good experience for him, but he would not have made a difference tonight.
I think Nagbe could have helped us hold the ball for more than 3 seconds, he should have at least been a halftime substitution. KB was so bad that JK had to burn a sub on him just to get Cameron in the midfield.
Only bright spots tonight (and I use that term loosely) were Zardes, Brooks, and Guzan (except for the first goal). Johnson looked like he wanted to get upfield, but was too busy chasing.
As fans, we will drive ourselves crazy if we just focus on this game. But the tournament D a whole showed some positive developments.
I’m sure the El Tri trolls who vanished after the Ecuador game will show their mugs tonight. But at least we didn’t get spanked 7-0, so they can suck it
I’m sure the El Tri trolls who vanished after the Ecuador game will show their mugs tonight.
Oh, they never went away. They just changed their names. That’s the reason we saw a huge influx of random names we’ve never seen before with that all too familiar negative tone.
At the end of the day US and Mexico are just about the same, round of 16 exits and perhaps will be for awhile. One or the other might pull ahead for a little but that’s about it.
The French, you have to understand the situation. You say Pulisic looked like he didn’t belong (I disagree, looks like we saw things slightly differently) but by the time the subs happened it was a completely different game than the start of the game. By that time Argentina had a two goal lead, the momentum, and USMNT had lost all its confidence. You can’t really judge him like that. The game was already lost.
Obviously USA most likely still loses but we are discussing if they would have lost this bad if Klinsmann gets the lineup right.
I see your point, but tonight was the first night CP really looked physically outmatched (and I saw quite a few Budesliga matches as well). Also, to play CP instead of Wondo would be to move Zardes up which at least according to his play in the 2nd half would have helped, but left CP trying to defend either Rojo or Lavezzi which would not have been ideal either. CP’s tackling tonight was also lacking, yes I understand the situation. Maybe we lose 3-0 instead of 4 but does that really matter.
I feel it does matter psychologically for both the players and fans. Losing 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 3-1 is a lot better than losing 4-0 and having Argentina toy with you. I feel any respect the USMNT got by making it to the semis of this tournament gets undone with a performance like this. Let’s see what happens with the 3rd place game.
And big picture who do you want out there getting big game experience: Pulisic and Nagbe or Wondo and Beckerman? C’mon Klinsmann!!!
Had Argentina played with anywhere near the intensity that Chile played with against Mexico, this game would easily have been 8-0. The Argentina team was happy passing back to their D and even made a few bad passes in the final third that could’ve been goals. The US got lucky this score line wasn’t worse. And Guzan was lucky that play was called first as an offside, otherwise he’d have received a straight red for clotheslining Lavezzi.
Dempsey is a bit of a problem and has been for awhile now. He’s our best finsher in front of goal still. However he gives so little in the midfield, making runs pressing ect. Its fine if we’re better then the team we’re playing and can get something going, but if not then he’s a bit of a liability.
No Jermaine Jones equals no midfield for the USMNT.
Bradley and Beckerman combine for nothing going forward and looked really really flat.
Beckerman and Wondolowski are too slow for a game like this, if fact the USMNT were slow…..slow on the ball, slow marking, slow on the one on ones….no dynamics, no confident, no urgency.
We did bunker and absorb pressure, we didn’t attack, we didn’t counter, we didn’t have possession…..it’s as if we were scared
Its not like we can beat an inform Argentinian team (with Messi) but TODAY we just didn’t bring it or play with heart at all. We were defeated mentally before we even stepped on the field
I don’t know that we bunkered as much as would say we were shoved into a bunker. Rojo being able to constantly get down the wing and their three forwards making runs into the box just forced everyone so deep.
Argentina is ranked #1 in the world for a good reason. They had a whole lot to do with our poor play.
Certainly, but some of it was self inflicted.
Beckerman to me looks slow and has for about a year. I’m not sure he is even up to Hex level. Bradley is still decent but I think gets exposed by top level teams as we saw in Brazil.
Jones is getting old too.
I am a little concerned that with two years to go and a bunch of money on the table games coming up, we are basically wired into the same old fart 30+ midfield. That situation is only going to further erode and we haven’t figured out who can play defensively in the same manner in their place. [Diskerud and others seem more offensively minded and can’t execute the same tactics.]
There was no one on the bench tonight that would have made any difference let’s be honest. If you want to try an argument for formation I’ll accept that, but not players on the field. Pulisic got roughed up every time he got the ball they just chucked him or tackled it away, and his tackling was ineffective. Nagbe had a couple nice moves right after coming on but nothing was created from them, but that was after the Argentina changed tactics and the US was in full press mode. Cameron’s long called for move to CM, did little other than expose the back four.
We got beat by a much better team and beat ourselves quite a bit as well. Brooks and Johnson were not very good tonight. Bradley turned the ball over in a couple key moments. Dempsey could do nothing for most of the night. The entire back line just gave the ball away to easily.
Zardes was by far our best player, Yedlin did ok going forward really provided both of our scoring chances.
Yeah, you’re right, nobody would have done any better than Wondo…ummmmmm
He was bad, but name someone on the bench that played much better or make a case for Perry Kitchen. At least Wondo won a couple balls, Clint didn’t even touch the ball for 30 mins. I like Pulisic and Nagbe a lot better than Wondo, but they were over matched out there too. Birnbaum turned the ball over to Messi which led to the 4th goal. So that leaves you with Orozco, Kitchen, and Besler. And don’t tell me FJ at mid or wing, because he was pretty dreadful tonight too.
Every single player on the roster would have made a better contribution than wondo. Not saying they would be great or change the match, but wondo singlehandedly let the game get out of hand with his deep foul and yellow card, and did zilch besides that except kick the ball put of bounds a couple times.
Said it many time the lineup should have been same defense as last game, Fabian in midfield with MB, zusi, and nagbe, with zardes and Clint up top.
Yes, we lose anyways, and Fabian was atrocious, almost as bad as Bradley, but at least that lineup holds the ball a bit and makes us competitive.
Nagbe is what, 25? This is no spring chicken, and klinsy is afraid to use him? He’s twice the player of wondo and Beckerman.
@johnnyrazor
“name someone on the bench that played much better”
i’d say pulisic played better than wondo, and that’s after argentina started sitting their defense back. wouldn’t have changed the final result, but it couldn’t have hurt, either.
I think people got carried away and had unrealistic expectations. Aguero, who scored 29 goals this season, didn’t even get off the bench. There fourth most productive goal scorer is Di Maria and I would have to say he is better than any attacker we have or are likely to have in the next few years. Their passing was practically flawless so that pressing them accomplished nothing. If they play to their potential, there is no way we could ever beat this team. I was disappointed in their first and last goals, because the first one was due to ball watching by the defense and the last was a bad decision, trying to play out of a trap when the player wasn’t skilled enough. So, it could have been closer, but not much.
Uggh. Not a surprising result given the disparity in rank and talent but man I wish we had showed a little better. Terrible defending by several on first goal. Many bad passes in bad areas to lead to the rest. Argentina is fantastically good but still we helped them look even better.
Most of that isnt JKs fault but I also hate to see Wondo in the lineup. There were so many options I heard and while none were going equal a lineup with our suspended players but Wondo doesnt have great speed to stretch the field or great passing and possession to hold the ball in transition. I guess he was there to work at the press and generate opportunities on the turnover but Im dont like that call. If we were likely to loose pick a strategy that allows you to use a player with a future. Move zardes up to forward and use FJ, nagbe, or pulisic in mid field.
I wasn’t disappointed we caught a whoopin’, I was disappointed in how many basic soccer plays we messed up. We were so slow and looked multiple steps behind at everything. And I’ve been a supporter of his, but if Bradley has played a worse game for the U.S., I don’t remember. Just awful tonight, though to be fair, almost player visibly looked overwhelmed.
I called 4-0 when the lineup was announced. For as much as I love Klinsy omitting Orazco for Besler last game, it was the exact opposite here. What a wimpy, cowardly move going with Beckerman and Wondo. Seriously, who in this country thought anything would happen with Wondo other than what did happen. What a joke.
Now the US would have lost anyways. Argentina’s passing out of trouble in tight spaces was amazing. But that lineup choice was so embarrassing. 2 years for another WC and we’re trotting out a couple 33 year olds who have no business being anywhere close to the national team.
Agreed with previous poster. I think Brooks was decent, Yedlin was fine, and surprisingly, Zusi was ok. Also thought Zardes was maybe the best player on the field for the US. Worked very hard and was the one player who controlled the ball a few times and found some space.
Is it time that we start rotating off Bradley as an automatic starter? I was so happy when Klinsy came in and sat him a few times, but quickly realized he was still out best player. He looks terrible the last couple years. At this point, I don’t think it’s just a fluke, and think his transition to MLS has really hurt his quality.
Embarrassing display all around.
Bradley is the typical MLS type. A step slow and the ball skills are good but not spectacular. This makes a difference in these type of games.
Agree wholeheartedly with all your points except the first. The lineup with Wondo and Beckerman made no difference. JK does not like to shell-shock his up and coming players. Bringing in Pulisic was good timing. I did wish that Nagbe had been given a longer run-out. Regarding MB – it is definitely time to get a replacement, and that means before the WC. I don’t believe that he had even one foul. Donovan hit the nail on the head when he asked why the US didn’t have more yellows. We are still an AYSO team when it comes down to it. Remember a couple years ago when JK was crucified for saying that the US needed to learn to be a bit nasty! US soccer culture is still dominated far too much by the youth soccer mentality.
One I think the idea was not to foul and give up cheap free kicks, since set pieces had been how we had been giving up goals. Two our three best foulers were in the luxury box on suspension. Beckerman would have been fouling so deep Messi would of had a hat trick of free kick goals and Bradley is really bad at fouling.
razor… if Beckerman is bad at fouling… then you can’t start him. His role is to kick the other team. Even Argentina fans were suprised at how little we kicked their players.
Turk you misunderstood my comment, because we had no possession Beckerman was rarely further than 25 yards from goal, if he’d fouled more, Messi would have just had more free kicks to deliver. Bradley is who can’t foul, when he does he neither wins the ball or hits the player hard enough to stop play and usually just puts the defense at a disadvantage.
I hope the USSF made tons of money off this tournament so that we can invest in scouting and youth development. We looked slow, uncoordinated, unprepared, and uninspired. We need an injection of youth on the squad and be willing to go through the growing pains that will definitely present themselves.
We go right back to qualifying and haven’t really tested the kids at all. Pulisic and Nagbe got some cameo minutes. We don’t know if they are up to Hex level play or not. We will need results to get out of the semi round, which will encourage safe selections by Klinsmann as opposed to risk taking. Then, having made the choice to depend on all these old farts for yet another tournament where they can’t win, we’re going to expect them to win big Hex games against teams like Mexico this set of people have shown they can’t beat.
We should have spent more of this tournament looking at what is out there because the upshot is we have basically re-proven that the 30+ core of the team is ok but not good enough against elite teams. We will backpat about the semi achievement but we haven’t really moved the personnel ball much downfield and now face the meaningful test of qualifying again.
It was another level. While I commend our team for not giving up, we just didn’t have the skill to compete with world class players. Some interesting choices in the starting lineup, which I hope never happens again. I think that Zardes is growing into a player, which I actually never though would happen. I’m not sure that Pulisic and Nagbe starting would have been wise. Of course we’ll never know. And we have some aging players that just aren’t cutting it anymore. A bright spot here and there, but getting few and far between. Let’s just hope that our young guys will step up.
Klinsman made a bonehead decision (please just let Wondo post those pictures embarrassing of you and move on). It just got worse from there. I think Johnson had the worst game of the night for a player not named Wondo, Did he complete a pass? Hats off to Messi &co; outclassed us in every aspect.
Argentina is playing like a team on a mission. I was hoping for a slight letdown after a short rest after Saturday and a long flight. No chance. They can beat either Colombia or Chike if they keep up the peak form.
Let’s give the US team credit for reaching the semi-final of a very tough tournament. Brazil didn’t make it out of the group stages. Mexico rolled over and played dead in the quarterfinals in front of a home crowd. The 3rd place game is meaningless – play the subs and sense we are prepared for the next round of WCQ.
It’s not that they lost is how they lost and how they played. They made it to the semi-final, that’s good, but they played horrible today and it was shameful, not good. To downplay today’s game just because they made it to the semis doesn’t make sense.
You greatly underestimate the influence of the quality of Argentina.
No Gary as usual you are just downplaying things. So because Argentina is really good we are supposed to lose 4-0 and look horrible? Not be able to complete simple passes? I’ve seen the USMNT go up against really talented teams before, teams that are way better than the USMNT, and not lose 4-0. I’ve even seen them win some of those types of games.
And if we played that team in 10 straight games we’d win one and if we had played Spain in 2009 10 times we probably win one. It just happens that the one in that case actually happened. We were not good, we didn’t clear a ball in the 4th minute and got burned. After that we were chasing our tail. A lot of times in those games where we beat those better teams they missed that first chance instead of hitting a perfect chip over the keeper. Argentina didn’t miss many tonight other than a couple good saves from Guzan. Rarely have we beaten a top team when they were at their best.
Argentina didn’t allow the US to have any time on the ball for about 80 to 90% of the time, they made better tackles and won most 50/50 balls. That all happened because they are a much better opponent than we are used to. We were close to Germany and Belgium in the World Cup because of a lot of last ditch defending with few mistake and just darn luck. Plus, Belgium missed a lot of chances while Howard had the game of his life. I think outside the top half dozen or so teams we can be competitive, but we are just not good enough to hold our own with the top teams when the games count. Are you like bottlecaps and think we are good enough to win the World Cup? Compare the resumes of our players with those of teams like Belgium,. Argentina, Germany or even France. All those teams have players who are world class stars, often several on each team. We have none. By goals scored, Di Maria is Argentina’s 4th best attacker and is better than Dempsey or anyone else we have. Lavezzi is 6th best, behind Lamela, and is probably better than anyone we have. The US success is often due to over achieving, not level of talent.
Gary, Johnny: You guys are arguing against something that am not saying. You are making it seem like I am saying we should have won, which I didn’t say. My point was clear, that this was a shameful performance by the USMNT and even if we lost we should not have lost as badly as we did, and played as badly as we did. You guys seem to be of the attitude, “well it’s Argentina so it’s ok that the team performed as badly as it did, why would they even bother to show up?” Sorry but I don’t agree with that mentality.
I hate Mexico, but I am willing to point out the hypocrisy of some US fans making it all about Mexico when they get crushed by Chile, but when the US gets crushed by Argentina it’s all about how great Argentina is and let’s excuse the US team. C’mon!
ucla… I agree we came out prepared to just limit the bleeding… not to play. But to some extent that was going to be the result regardless when 3 of our starters were suspended.
Ucla, I guess where my point of contention with this is that you seem to be (unintentionally?) laying the usmnt ‘s poor performance completely on our feet, without (properly) acknowledging that Argentina did so many little things last night that completely shut us down. Did we play terribly? Absolutely. No excuse for errant passes and ridiculously poor first touches from players that shouldn’t have those problems.
But, if there was any indication as to whether Messi and Co. were taking us serious, the question was answered. Argentina did there homework against us, and they prepared like crazy for us. This team was on a mission.
And can we please never use a flat 442 ever again? We struggle to find space and make multiple outlet options for ourselves. Finding space and making yourself an option doesn’t come naturally to us. There’s a reason we look better with our short passing game when we play the 433; it creates natural triangles.
One hand, other hand, I agree with others that Argentina (and probably the rest of the final 4) are simply better than us. I would like to have seen a fully staffed US team (no card issues) that took some personnel risks this tournament and this game. Poor selection this game and they didn’t play well at all. I agree with you that taking for granted opponent quality, they should still be judged by coaching choices and quality of play. 4-0 and easy it didn’t have to be, even if we were going to lose. Compare it to the Colombia game.
That was rough but they kept fighting for the most part at least. Fans stayed in it as well. Thought Brooks, (except for that one slip up) and Yedlin played pretty well.
also 3rd place matches are so pointless
Unless you’re young. I hope that young guys get to play and we go out on a high. Third place in a major tourney isn’t too shabby.
Not for guys like Pulisic, Nagbe, Yedlin, Kitchen, Birnbaum, and Wood who need the experience of every international game.
That’s why US Soccer needs to step-up its social game. Hold an online poll for the starting eleven of the third place game, as voted by the fans. Trot out the lineup they want to see. If we get blown away, than JK looks all the wiser.
A fan selected 11??? Jesus H Christ I hope that day never comes.
Brooks’ rap before this was a penchant for “except for that one mistake” issues that hurt us. I am a little concerned that as with Wondo scoring dozens that one Gold Cup, the lesser competition played thus far may give a misleading sense of what we have.
The strikers for Colombia, Ecuador, and Costa Rica all play in or recently played in Premier League or Serie A the first four games were not “weak competition” If you watch Brooks play in the Bundesliga his play this past season was very good.
Obviously we were underdogs and not expected to win, but this game didn’t have to be a 4-0 blowout. It could have been much more of a game. Klinsmann did some good things this tournament but gave the team less of a chance with his lineup. Should have had Pulisic and Nagbe out there from the beginning. Or moved Johnson and or Cameron up to midfield from the beginning. The players after going down right away felt the shock and did not play well.
I agree that Nagbe and Pulsic should have been out there in beginning.
They didn’t make any difference when they came on and the Argentine press in the first half would have eaten them up just as easily. CP gave the ball up pretty much every time in the first 30 mins of the 2nd half and usually ended up on the ground afterwards.
Thank you!!!!
While I think Pulisic has a very bright future, he would not have made a difference. That being said, I would not have started Wondo or Beckerman. Zusi looked fine throughout the tournament; I would kept Bradley in the 6, Nagbe in center midfield, Zardes (who looked good today – relatively) on top, Besler at LB, and FJ on the wing.
Totally agree that Pulisic and Nagbe should have started. While I concede that it ultimately may not have made much of a difference, I also don’t think it would have been worse. Wondo was invisible, except for fouling. His yellow was a tactical foul and easy straight yellow to give, but he was already on a warning and his next foul was going to be yellow anyway. With 20-20 hindsight, he would have been better off letting Messi go — Brooks was still in front of him at the time of the foul.
Klinsman (who I generally like overall) really needs to stop punishing players who need time off. Howard is a better keeper than Guzan. He definitely would have stopped the first goal and quite possibly the second (if for no other reason than he’s taller than Guzan and might have got a fingertip to that otherwise AMAZING Messi goal). Replacing him is the same mistake as omitting Donovan during the WC. We would have done better in the Gold Cup and in this game with Howard in goal. That said, who’s going to step up at #1 in the next WC?
Johnny:
Pulisic and Nagbe were way better than Wondo and Beckerman. And by the time those players came on the game was out of reach. To say something like “Nagbe didn’t make a difference when he came on” but what, was it 3-0 when he came on? The whole team was already defeated he wasn’t going to make much of a difference at that point. Usa still probably loses but not that bad.
Nagbe should’ve started. He was struggling to get into a usmnt that lost control. But if he started, would’ve helped us control and slow down the tempo against an Argentinian side that was not taking any chances of an upset against us. Should’ve kept a 433.
And pulisic was manhandled a bit. The talent is there, you could see what he was trying to do everytime, but Argentina just refused to let him do it. Excited to see him in a few years, let him fill out and grow into a man, and we may see a completely different level from him.
I said this before the game. I was even somewhat cranky at the whole approach to this tournament since I thought we should have spent more time trying younger options since I think this is what we do in big games playing this bunch of older players.
But, I would say that while Pulisic had his moments, Nagbe struggled with the pace of the game as a sub.
But that is part of what one experiments with games like this for, is to see what one has.
It wouldn’t have mattered. Even if we had our 3 starters, it would have mattered only a little. Precision passing and speed of play were the difference. They played about one and a half times faster than we did and their passing efficiency must have been over 90%.
GP: I have to disagree, Havinf Jones, Wood, and Bedoya makes a huge difference in this game. These 3 can possess better than Wondo, Beckerman, and Zusi. That 1.5 increase in speed of play is the difference in our starters. Jones isn’t losing his mark that Beckerman did on goal #1,
which set the tone from minute 3.
It may not have affected the outcome, but I think it affected the way we played and our mentality.
Jones would have tracked the run and gotten that header on the 1st goal. That would have made a huge difference. Pretty much every game this tournament, and in recent memory, has had the US defense looking shaky at best for the first 15 minutes before settling in. Well, they were beat at 3 this match. Get the game to the 20th minute scoreless and you are significantly shortening the game and you start transitioning that pressure from the US to defend to ARG to score. Instead, we put Beckerman in there and he watched a runner fill space he left open to score the opener. Sadly, most knew this would happen once this starting lineup was announced.
Were I less busy, I’d make the meme paraphrasing Jurgen’s multiple quotes that “the problem with US soccer and MLS is that they don’t trust youth and won’t play them, and that hurts success” next to a picture of Jurgen starting Wondo and Beckerman. He is seriously in contention with Roy Hodgson for title of worst tactical coach in the world.
To be fair, Pulisic was in for 45+3 min and Nagbe subbed in for Dempsey at the 78th min. They did not make a significant impact on the game. Argentina was just as good as advertised.
Nagbe wasn’t given much of a chance that’s true, but the way Argentina was tackling in the first half it makes no difference. Beckerman was Beckerman, but he didn’t lead to any of the goals so tough to blame him for the score line, at least most of his poor passes went out of bounds instead of to Mascherano and Benega would have dominated any of our midfielders.
I looked like a varsity squad versus a 9th grade squad out there. I was most impressed by Argentina’s precision passing.
No surprise except for how poorly the U.S. played. My God our national team looked bad.
On the few chances the US did get the ball, they immediately gave in to pressure or decided play a long ball to no one in particular. Argentina’s press was all over our players. our press was two steps too late.
Yeah. We didn’t press for a large portion of the game, which was stupid in my opinion, especially in a 4-4-2. But, JK also made the mistake of starting Wondo. You either press high and use Zardes up top with Dempsey in the 4-4-2 as a speed guy, or go into a 4-5-1 and clog the middle to play more of a counter game. But, we just let them pass us to death and by the time we started pressing, we did it poorly. You can’t have 3 players converge on 1 and expect a team like Argentina not to just dink it to a wide open player.
Argentina made few mistakes, but when they did, we did not capitalize. We just gave it right back to them. While their press was certainly good, there were a lot of sloppy passes, especially from Bradley. I’m not going to say he needs to be replaced because of this game, but he really needs to step up his game overall. He has a lot of the tools, but he tends to be very hot and cold with not middle ground.
Similar to the comments below, I wasn’t upset that we lost, but upset with how we lost. Overall, most of our players were just not good at all tonight, with the exception of maybe Zardes (the only threat going forward and seemed to play RB for half of the game and make a lot of important clearances). I hope the 3rd place game can be used for the younger guys that probably should have or could have played today, just as a change of pace. Maybe something like below:
Pulisic———-Wood———–Zardes
———Nagbe———Bedoya———
—————–Kitchen——————
FJ—–Brooks—–Cameron—-Yedlin
——————Guzan——————-
*Not sure if Jones is eligible or not, but if he is, maybe swap him and Kitchen.
I always laughed when fans wanted to bench Bradley. I feel differently after this tourney. I’m not saying he needs to sit long-term, but a third place game to help send a message couldn’t hurt (ala Altidore).
For all of you idiots Bradley haters, swap spots Between Mascherano and Bradley last night and let’s see how good Mascherano plays. By your moronic logic, if that was to happen we would have made it a one goal game or have a chance to win it. But then again, you are the same morons who think Yedlin is a soccer player.
Two cents: I didn’t understand starting Wondo, and I really didn’t understand starting him to play tentative defense. He’s a chaser and we weren’t chasing them most of the game. We backed off and played positional defense, and they picked us apart. Basically too fast playing and technical for what worked against Ecuador.
Two Cents is spot on.
Michael Bradley looked like a lightweight, MLS chump. Ditto for Zusi. And those were our midfield skill players? Guzan looked mediocre. Zusi the same. We really missed JJ and Wood today. Wondo/Zardes did about you’d expect.
If you just looked at MLS play, is Bradley even a top 5 central midfielder in MLS? Is he even a top 5 American central midfielder in MLS?
Agreed, that had to be the worst game I’ve ever seen Bradley play. And can we please all get off the John Brooks bandwagon now? Just atrocious. You know who else sucked? Well let’s just put it this way: 60 minutes in and a friend turned to me and said “wait, is Dempsey playing tonight?”
All I hoped for was that we went down fighting. Instead we played like a bunch of scared high schoolers.
This is a team sport. By your irrational logic, if we swap Messi for Wondo last night we would’ve won. The team did not show up to play. And fanboys like you don’t see the enormous flwas of our coach in chief. I mean bringing Wondo and Becky to the team was bad, but playing them against Argentina is just beyond irresponsible. Sack Klinsmann or we are not going to Russia. How many times am I going to say that?
Say it as many times as you want, b/c no one listens to your idiotic banter