Is this Italy team washed up?
It is a question that would have seemed absurd heading into the European Championships, but a fair one after watching the Italians drag through Monday’s 3-0 loss to the Netherlands. Yes, a few calls and bounces going the other way might have made it a different game, but the Dutch dominated from start to finish, leaving plenty of questions about The ‘Azzurri’.
First and foremost, is it time for major midfield changes? When the AC Milan trio of Andrea Pirlo, Gennaro Gattuso and Massimo Ambrosini took the field I’m sure some non-Milan fans asked why the entire midfield of a team that couldn’t qualify for the Champions League was guiding Italy. Fair point indeed. Robert Donadoni will have some tough decisions to make before Italy’s second match against Romania. Can he break up that Milan trio and start Alessandro Del Piero and Daniele De Rossi? I don’t think too many people will criticize him if he does.
What about the back-line? When a team gives up three goals you tend to look at the defense, but I’m not sure the back-line was as bad as the midfield. Consider the three Dutch goals. The first came on a freaky play where Christian Panucci was on the ground out of bounds, playing Ruud van Nistelrooy onside while his teammates thought Ruud was offside. The second goal was a defensive breakdown, but the third goal came directly on a late-game counterattack after the Italians had already switched to a three-man defense.
In other words, the defense wasn’t the issue (though I wonder if Marco Materazzi will be fit for Romania). The issue was a midfield that just couldn’t match the Dutch team’s energy, creativity and ability to hold on to the ball. I’ll be the first to admit that I didn’t think the Dutch had defensive midfielders who could protect that shaky Dutch defense, but Nigel de Jong and Orlando Engelaar did an amazing job shutting down Pirlo and Co.
What do you think? Can Italy regroup and survive Group C? Is it too late? Is Italy just too old to survive this brutal group? Share your thoughts below.
So I see that some of the Italian players are younger than 30 (I just looked up Pirlo), but the point is the same, the guys are older and out-of-form after a bad year at Milan.
One other thing unrelated to the game last night — if the Red Bulls wanted to pick up Clarence Seedorf for the 2nd DP slot next year, I would love it!
I don’t think Italy looked bad at all and the scoreline definitely looks much worse than they played.
Some things to remember are that the Dutch cleared a ball off the line, had a crazy goal mouth scramble and Van der Sar is a very, very good goalkeeper. Italy had some great chances, a number of which were created by Pirlo who I thought looked very good. But Italy was unlucky not to convert their chances and I’m confident they’ll come back with a vengeance for their last two games.
On the other hand, Donadoni’s choices were very questionable. For all of the players to be 30+ except for Cannavaro’s replacement is amazing and startling. And it became clear they were all a step behind the much younger and faster Dutch midfield. The point about AC Milan’s midfield guiding Italy after their poor season is totally legit — these guys aren’t in their best form and it would make sense to give other, younger guys the opportunity after having performed better this year. Frankly, perhaps they should even have called up Rossi into their striker corp.
The other thing is that Wesley Sneijder is an AMAZING player when he’s in form and on fire. He was unstoppable for Real Madrid at the beginning of their season and he’s clearly on fire now. Sneijder and Van der Vaart were really the difference in this game with Van Bronckhorst also playing well. When a guy like Sneijder is rolling, every other team in the tournament should take note. Finally would also like to note that Ibrahim Afellay looked fantastic, offering up a number of the qualities that make Cristiano Ronaldo so great.
I may be in the minority but I’m shocked by the poor defending by Italy on those two counter attacks. They had defenders back but did not pick up the one runner in the box (Sneijder and then Bronckhorst) who had plenty of space to attempt their kick/header on goal.
Thank you Ives.
Listen guys, here is my take on this argument (not sure how a question about the Italian national team turned into a trial against Serie A).
Serie A is NOT the defensive-minded, boring league it might have been in years past. If you watch it these days it is actually a pretty wide-open, attack-minded league. I think sometimes people misidentify good defending with defensive-minded. You won’t see as many chances in Serie A because I think the defending is better, but you do see plenty of great chances in most games and I would argue that top to bottom, Serie A is as entertaining as England or Germany. At least it was this year.
As long as Netherland and Italy win their remaining games, Italy is in. But France must lose to Italy and Holland. Otherwise not so certain
Sorry, Moneyball: not joking. And, due to the level of chat activity on this site, today, I am terribly behind in my paperwork.
Pete: the “anglo worshiping US media” doesn’t cover soccer. (Unless you are referring to Ives, who does not appear to be “Anglo-worshiping” in any regard.)
And I was using the EPL for statistics only. It is not my favorite European League. My favorite league is the Eredivisie, which certainly cannot be considered one of the big 4. However, it does provide me with another opportunity for fun whenevr I visit Amsterdam.
Lastly, Moneyball: going back to one of your earlier posts, I would like to point out that, evan at age 61 and in wooden shoes, Cruyff could have scored on the Italians yesterday!!!!!!!!! Hup, Holland!
William, I hope you’re joking.
brent, I think you would be sensitive too if people used stereotypes to analyze something you like…or even who you are. Or maybe I am wrong and you just like doing that in general.
@William: my bad, didn’t see that post. you are correct, no offside.
@Dante: a little sensitive this morning, are we? LOL!
Moneyball: how did you know I was an attorney?
Offsides?? That issue has been addressed. UEFA has already said that there was no offsides, and the application of the offsides rule was explained on this very website yesterday. The Italian defender who was off the field counted as a field player. Tough rule, but fair.
Willie, even though I’m not actually in law school yet, I can see a few holes in your logic.
1. You make a comparison using a small sample size. ONE TEAM from this league scored less than ONE TEAM from that league. Not a good look for a real logical argument.
2. You further shrink the sample size to one player from each league. What’s next, are you going to bring up how Ronaldo scored 3 goals one game and Del Piero was held scoreless the same week? Or break it down to who scored more in the first 15 minutes?
3. You then completely deviate from the point of your argument, which was that Italian soccer is “more boring”. So EPL teams did better in the Champions League in 2008…since when did someone establish a correlation between the excitement of play and the end result? I suppose the fact that Greece won Euro 2004 can be used to prove that they were not boring in the least, right? You’re really grasping at straws here.
I’m not sure how you believe that those numbers are clear in proving your point. If you want, I can remind you of what your original point way – it seems you’ve forgotten. You said that Serie A is a boring, defense-first league, and since most Italian players play in Serie A, they have trouble adjusting to attack-oriented teams like the Netherlands.
Feel free to support that statement if you ever, you know, get a chance between looking up irrelevant numbers and braying while you swat flies with your tail.
You are extremely correct in pointing out that the top four in England are the best top four in the world — but once you get past that, the premiership is absolute rubbish. The second tier teams in Spain and Italy completely and utterly dwarf the second tier in England…when was the last time England had a UEFA Cup winner, by the way? And the bottom of the premiership is absolutely atrocious — you want to know a major reason why Man Utd scored 80 goals: they were able to play the likes of Derby, Wigan, Newcastle, Spurs and Sunderland. Do you have any idea how much better technically a team like Empoli is than Derby? Probably not, because I doubt you saw a single Empoli match this year.
Either way, it’s a matter of opinion and preference of styles. Those sticking up to your baseless bashing of Serie A are not apologists; we simply prefer a more technical style of football and don’t accept what the anglo-worshiping US media shove down our throats. My opinion is that, from top to bottom, England is by far the worst of the top 3 leagues (I don’t watch the German league so I wouldn’t presume to rank it) not to mention the least enjoyable to watch.
Once again, who was playing catenaccio? Italy hasn’t used that system since Cesare Maldini decided to use it for the 1998 World Cup. Once again, someone who doesn’t know what he is watching. I love it. When did SBI become World Soccer Daily?
Everything changed with the first Holland goal, which was offside and should have been disallowed. After that, Italy couldn’t play their usual catanaccio and got repeatedly burned on the counterattack. I thoroughly enjoyed the whining floppers getting served. Gattuso is particularly irksome.
No one is apologizing for the performance of the Italians last night. We just think you’re full of &$^# and are calling you out for your stereotypes and failure to know anything about the game you watch. Enjoy!
Too bad Inter and Milan didn’t have Derby County and the other cupcakes to play that you get in the EPL.
Seriously, if you think Italy is boring then you just have no idea what you are watching. I can’t wait to see your tactical analysis of the Russians. Are they still Commies?
Actually, I DO watch Serie A games when there are no better games on to watch. Why don’t we look at the stats??
Inter Milan, which won the league title, scored 69 goals in 38 games, an average of 1.8 goals per game. The leading score in Serie A (Del Piero) tallied 21 goals all season. “Wow,” he said, sarcastically.
Manchester United, winner of the EPL, scored 80 goals in 38 games, 11 more on the season in the same number of games. The leading scorer in the EPL (Ronald0) tallied 31 goals in league play. That really is a WOW.
How far did Milan go in the Champions League? How many EPL teams were in the final 4 in the Champions League? How many Serie A teams even made the final eight.
Numbers don’t lie, and the numbers here are very, very clear. So, all of you apologists for Serie A, and by extension – apologists for the Italian performance yesterday, can kiss my #@&!
I’m glad this is turning into a game of “point out the idiot who has never actually watched a Serie A game.”
Yup, Dante, Serie A was fantastic this year.
That’s one of the other interesting things about the group, is all 3 of the big guns are capable of high profile flame-outs. I would say Italy would be in real trouble if France looked good – but they didn’t.
Italy needs an injection of energy and ideas, fast, and Cassano might have that if he can be trusted with the keys to the car.
They are definitely missing Totti.
Yes, Dante (“incipt vita nuova”??), I hate to break it to you, but Serie A is by far the most boring of the 4 major domestic leagues in Europe (England, Spain, Germany and Italy). The Italians do not play to win, they play to not lose. They are excellent at defense and diving and emotional theatrics. And while that may be entertaining to the Italian fans, it is boring to watch for the rest of us.
My synopsis on Italy: great food, great art, boring football. I have spoken.
by the way, Dante, how’s Beatrice?
They should’ve called up their secret American weapon, Rossi 😉
“I think that the Italians, most of whom play in Serie A and do not venture out into other leagues, are just caught up in the Italian mindset of “bunker in and play defense.” Italian football is boring on the domestic level and this translates to the international level, as well. If you are not used to an all-out attacking style of football at the club level, you certainly won’t adapt well to defending a team like the Dutch.”
Posted by: William the Terror | June 10, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Worst.Regurgitated.Self-Perpetuating.Garbage.Ever.
1. The Italians didn’t pack it in yesterday. They played more aggressively and got burned on the counter. If they had sat back, how in the world could they have been beaten on the counter? Makes no sense.
2. Re: “If you are not used to an all-out attacking style…you certainly won’t adapt well..” Uh..is that why Italy, until yesterday, had not lost to the Netherlands since Cruyff was a young lad in wooden shoes? How can you possibly support that statement? OK, maybe you believe Italian soccer is boring…how do you argue that it hasn’t adapted well in beating all-out attacking teams?! They’ve won 4 World Cups, including 2 years ago!
3. Every player in Italy’s starting XI had extensive international experience, in both club and national team games. I suppose this is the first time they’ve ever seen another team that tried to score? I suppose Zambrotta, Grosso and Toni only play Italian-style teams in Spain, France and Germany? I suppose the entire AC Milan contingent – who won the Champions League 13 months ago! – are unable to adapt to a team that dares to push forward? Good point.
4. You’ve seen the movie Eurotrip. Sorry to go ad hominem, but I can’t listen to the opinion of anyone who enjoyed that movie.
I’m done. Feel free to continue spouting your overdone cliched arguments, but know that there are people out there who actually think critically and draw conclusions independently, and that you will be called out if you can’t back your arguments up.
Italian football is boring on the domestic level? Apparently you aren’t watching much of it. I love the stereotypes. It’s so funny to see people clinging to ideas from years ago because they have no idea what they are actually watching on the field.
Based on what I saw, even with giving up 3 goals and getting controlled by Holland Italy is a better team than either France or Romania. Neither of those 2 showed any kind of offensive skill. Italy will probably get 4 points out of the next 2 and its not out of question they get 6.
Romania and France won’t win a game in this group.
They lost because they had bad personnel and used the wrong tactics against a team that plays an open, attacking style like The Orange. A couple individual players looked bad all-around, but most of the problems could be chalked up to overall team tactics. We know these guys can play, because, for the most part, this is the same team that won in 2006.
I don’t think Donadoni is a complete idiot(which puts me in the minority among those of Italian heritage), so I think we’ll see a smarter gameplan for the next game. And it wasn’t like they didn’t have their chances against the Netherlands…on another day, one or two of those shots finds the net. I wouldn’t start panicking yet.
However, there is the possibility that this team will fall apart mentally. They cannot afford to go down 1-0 to France, because I’m not sure they’ll be able to keep their poise if they do. If they go up 1-0, I think they regain their confidence and go on to find their rhythm and become more and more a serious threat as the tournament goes on.
Personally, I think you have to keep Pirlo in the middle, but definitely bring in De Rossi and run a 4-3-1-2 with Del Piero in the hole (a la Totti) as a playmaker to get service to Toni and Cassano (who needs to play). Also replace Materazzi (who is a red card waiting to happen) with a younger central defense choice like Chiellini and they should be in good shape.
@Tony in Quakeland – “group of rigor mortis” 😀 LOL!!!
@doug – Thanks for the note about age of the rest of the Italy squad. I was going to ask what young guys they brought that could inject a spark into the squad. Apparently not a lot.
In general, I would love for Italy to be done but neither France or Romania looked convincing enough.
This was a well-taken win by the Dutch, who, after all, invented the modern game in the early 70’s. Total football was on display. I think that the Italians, most of whom play in Serie A and do not venture out into other leagues, are just caught up in the Italian mindset of “bunker in and play defense.” Italian football is boring on the domestic level and this translates to the international level, as well. If you are not used to an all-out attacking style of football at the club level, you certainly won’t adapt well to defending a team like the Dutch.
That being said, I agree that they will stack up better against France and Romania, neither fo which play an aggressive attacking style. But I still hope the lose and the France also gets shown the door after the group stage.
I will end by quoting the head soccer hooligan from the movie “Eurotrip.”
“Every European country should have a seat at the table. Except for them Ities. I hate those Italian bastards.”
I don’t know if I would say Italy is finished….it all depends on how they respond especially since France looked less than inspiring. This team just look stunned after RVN’s goal. This team also missed Cannavaro though. Even though he might have lost a step he’s a great organizer at the back. He wouldn’t of necessarily stopped any of the goals but I think he would have definitely been a calming influence after that freaky first one. That defense was just crazy looking at points in the game. Granted Zambrotta was playing out of position and Materazzi continued his poor form but still for a team that historically prides itself on its defense that was a pitiful display. So much for a shaky Dutch defense though…that Orlando Engelaar looked pretty good to me protecting the back four and they generally looked pretty composed. Scary thing is that now they can probably save Robben and Van Persie, since they probably only need one more win to get through.
I love how everyone jumps on the bandwagon after 1 game. I think the Italy defense is plenty to blame. That 2rd goal, they had 5 guys back and no one markred Van Brockhorst. If any defender was within 5 feet of him, he probably doesn’t get quite as good of a look – or maybe the ball is never even crossed to him.
I say Italy still gets out of this group. Italy has always been great at finishing and wasn’t yesterday. Toni alone could have scored 2-3 goals. So, I think the offense will wake up and they will play much more compact. I don’t think they will go very far, but I do think they will make it out of group play.
Ives,
Completely agree. I watched the game on my DVR last night, the midfield got shredded. Holland #8 & #10, don’t know their names were knocking the ball all over the place.
First, I think they need to get Gattuso out. I see this with a lot of coaches and teams. Good players getting old, still smart but not the same pace. He is supposed to be a detroyer (chaser), ball winner, whatever. He did nothing, except foul. Sometimes the older skillfull guys like Del Piero & Pirlo can still play but need to be surrounded with some young legs. Ambrosini should sit too.
I think you’ll see Italy replace those 2 in midfield. I also think Materazzi should sit. He looks slow. I’ve seen him get toasted a lot this year in Italy as well. Chellieni, the guy from Juve should get the call.
Toni had no service or support up front. I would play him along with Del Piero. Maybe throw in Cassano & De Rossi in the midfield.
One of the problems the Italians had was the lack of urgency in the first half. I saw a better second half, but they got caught on another great counter. Romania looked decent for long stretches against France and I think with their speed could give Italy some problems. We’ll see.
I think Donadoni completeley picked the wrong squad for the game against the Dutch. Its as if he didnt realize all the Dutch do is attack, attack, attack. He shoudlve picked a younger, faster, more mobile squad for this game. The Dutch looked every bit the younger faster more aggresive team. On Holland, only Ruud, VanDerSar, and Gio above 30. For Italy, everyone, except Pirlo who is 29, is 30 and up. Consider this out of the entire Italian squad, only Cassano, Aquilani, Boriello, Quagliarella, Cheillini and Gamberini are under 30
I just wouldn’t count out anybody yet. Romania is devilishly hard to score on and they have skills. The France-Romania game was a snoozer because the French don’t exactly prefer to come forward any more than the Romanians. I think Romania gave up something like 7 goals in qualifying. They are STINGY. They could tie both their next two games, opening it all right back up.
Cheers,
T, obviously Italy isn’t literally finished (no team can be eliminated after one game). The question relates to the state of the Italian team in general and whether it’s just too old to do much in this tournament. That’s a fair question to ask after the way they looked Monday.
It’s so effen fun to watch the eye-talians lose. I don’t know why, but it is. I’ll be surprised if they advance.
Ives, how could any team be finished after one game? If you remember in euro 2004, portugal lost their first match and still went to the final, where they probably should have won it all.
You can’t say Italy’s finished with two more group games to go. Anything can happen.
Having said that, they got completely outclassed, and couldn’t score on a team with arguably some of the worst defenders in the tournament (I’m thinking Ooijer and Boulahrouz specifically from yesterday). I thought the Dutch defense played well yesterday, but it’s unbelievable to me that Italy couldn’t break through. No luck involved here, they got bent over a big orange knee and spanked to high heaven, pure and simple.
They need to abandon the 4-3-3 they started with and add another midfielder. There was just acres of space for the Dutch to run through because no one was closing down. I expected Italy to play more like Romania did.
Their fate is in their hands. I’m optimistic. After all, watching France and Romania made think, “Group of death? More like group of rigor mortis.”
The Italians need a new crop of youthful players… The current team has too many vets but I still would not count them out until we see what happens in Friday’s game. If they beat Romania…they are still in the hunt. besides I think this relatively poor performance vs the Dutch may wake a sleeping giant.
I wouldn’t say Italy is finished yet, but if they don’t respond to this in a strong fashion and show some good mentality, then they will be done going into the game against France.
This is the way I kind of see it. 2 results really
Standings as of now:
Netherlands-3
France-1
Romania-1
Italy-0
Remaining games:
Netherlands beats Romania
Italy beats Romania
France beats/ties Italy
France beats/ties Netherlands
Final standings:
Netherlands- 7 or 9
France-3, 4, 7
Italy-3, 4
Romania-1
It all comes down to the France-Italy game. Whoever wins that, goes through. If its a tie, France is in. The France-Romania game..9 times out of 10 is a France win. I think France has the edge going into that game and I fully expect Italy to be out. I do expect some massive lineup changes for the next game for Italy
I’m worried about the French and the Italians for the same reasons. Both have aging teams that need a little more youth infusion. If you are just starting to worry about these teams now, you’re a little late because they both were in danger of getting knocked out of Qualifying by Scottland. If I remember correctly, it went down to the last few matches before both teams qualified.
I agree wholeheartedly about the midfield, for me Ambrosini doesn’t belong ahead of De Rossi. I would like to see a midfield of De Rossi, Pirlo, Aquilani, because unlike the midfield yesterday I think they might offer them something going forward.
Del Piero needs to play. Toni when he isnt getting service is entirely useless. Del Piero can drop deeper and create something himself. Not saying he should play in place of Toni but I think the two of them with Cameronesi or Cassano could work.
the Italians have no speed.
They were markedly better with the addition of Cassano.
I think overall, they miss Totti and the injured Cannavaro.
Did anyone else notice that in the last 10 minutes or so Italy basically stopped trying? That was a real disappointment.
I hope not, if they dont get practice in they wont stand a chance against the chinese diving team at the olympics
Wow, I was just on another message board and posted a long response to a similar question. To summarize…
No. Romania did not look interested in scoring and France didn’t look stellar either. If Italy make the appropriate changes in their starting eleven, they should win these two matches, giving them six points and a place in the final eight. Are they in trouble? Yes, there is not much room for error,, but it is silly to say they are finished after one game against a team that played great football. Don’t forget that Romania and France play ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like the Dutch side.
I wouldn’t say they’re finished, though the midfield looked overmatched against the Dutch.
France wasn’t great and Romania wasn’t much better, so the Azzurri could still get out of the group.