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The subject of diving has become one of the most controversial and widely-discussed topics in European soccer, and it may be time to start addressing it in MLS.
Diving is nothing new, but the amount of diving taking place in MLS lately makes you wonder if players haven't begun realizing how shaky MLS referees are, and are now doing more and more to force those refs into questionable decisions.
Take Eduardo Lillingston's dive vs. New England on Sunday. No, it wasn't called a dive during the game, Lillingston was awarded a penalty after collapsing in a heap upon appearing to be touched by Matt Reis' gloved hand as he ran toward goal in the penalty area. Reis barely grazed Lillingston, if he touched him at all, but that didn't stop the dive from happening and being rewarded by referee Ricardo Salazar.
Now, the play happened in the 90th minute of a game Chivas USA already lead 1-0, so the blown call didn't impact the result of the match, but that doesn't make the dive any less awful.
Look at the play and you decide what you think:
Consider Lillingston's weak reply when asked if he was even touched on the play.
"Just a little bit," Lillingston told the Los Angeles Times. "Not really touch, but it's the game, no? You try to help your team win. Sometimes it's a penalty. Sometimes no."
That almost sounded like an admission of a dive, but Lillingston was quick to clarify when asked if he dove.
"No, absolutely not," Lillingston said. "It's a game, man. It's a game."
This brings me to a question. Should MLS consider suspending divers? Suspensions for diving have become a part of the game in Europe, with Arsenal striker Eduardo being recently suspended for his dive in a Champions League match.
What's the SBI Take? MLS needs to punish divers like Lillingston because MLS referees have enough trouble calling games without having dishonest players going to ground in hopes of having an opponent sent off. Perhaps referee Ricardo Salazar had a feeling Lillingston dove when he didn't issue Reis a red card, which should have come on the play if he felt Reis took Lillingston down on an open net. Once players realize they could face suspensions for diving we might start to see a drop-off in the theatrics taking place in the penalty area, and every time there appears to be a questionable challenge.
What do you think? Should MLS suspend divers? Cast your vote:
What did you think of the Lillingston-Reis play? Clear dive? Too close to call? Agree that divers should face suspensions, or do you agree with the notion that diving is part of the game?
Share your thoughts below.
I think Eddy summed up the opinion of divers…”but it’s the game, no?!!” WTF. That just goes to show they sell their theatrics in order to “play the game.” This is why it needs to be punished. I can’t stand seeing somebody get a knock or a supposed knock, roll around on the ground to help sell it, and then pop right up. This is not “playing the game.” It is a bunch of BS.
1) setup a ref committee to review flagrant fouls.
2) vote on degree of foul.
3) apply suspensions/fines accordingly.
it’s that simple.
* every game gets reviewed. keeps players on their toes (literally).
* some players are fined. the bigger the foul, the bigger the fine. (read: the bigger the dive, the bigger the fine) most divers would fall into this category.
* only the most flagrant fouls result in suspensions. this would have to be unanimous. EX: RedCardo kicking a dude. (divers would not fall here cuz it isn’t as blatant as kicking a guy on the ground or stepping on him like Wicks did).
and of course, like someone else said before, make Refs *full time* that way we get better refs + more dedicated refs. the best refs would be on this committee too
Regarding the Houston v. Columbus game, Schellotto & Moreno dive a lot (in my opinion) Actually, when Moreno played for Houston, his ass was always on the ground. I hated it. I was glad when they shipped his ass off. I couldn’t stand his type of play. None-the-less, my question is this, Geoff Cameron is easily 6’2″ and Moreno’s like 5’5″. If Cameron really pulled his wrist or arm, he’d have to literally slump down to pull of him down. Plus, Geoff doesn’t play that way. And, Moreno has a long history of diving. Now, I’m not saying that it’s “impossible” but the odds are defintely in favor of Moreno flopping in the box.
QuakesFanatic-
Who are YOU?
I think the referee crew that did the match should review the tape and have a chance to determine if there was a dive,
and if they see it as a dive in the replay,
then punish it,
since diving can affect the outcome of the game,
I think the punishment should be severe, i.e. suspension,
and should escalate with repitition,
i.e. 1 game first offense 2 games second offense 4 games third offense, 8 games fourth offense, etc.
aristotle:
i played soccer all growing up… including 4 yrs of D1 ball… and still play now in semi-competitive leagues and tourneys.
i didn’t deny there is contact, what i denied is that the pain of the contact requires one to roll about on the floor (typically holding the knee, not the shin) as if the pain is unbearable.
ditto someone else’s comment; i’m not sure you’re that familiar with b-ball. in any case, guys drive to the hoop (or try to stop guys from driving) and fall down numerous times throughout a game. often there is some diving involved––for example, in trying to win a charging penalty, a defender might embellish his fall. still, none of these events result in anyone rolling about on the floor like toddlers. they get up, staff come and wipe up the sweat with towels, and play continues.
I dunno Jules, everyone would see the ref ask the player if he dove, and then he’d be humiliated anyway if he said yes and no penalty was given–not that any would say yes ha
I think every penalty call that leads to a goal should be reviewed regardless of the circumstances.
I read one brilliant suggestion that before the call is given the ref would ask a player if they dived or not. If they say yes: no call, everything’s cool. If they say no: penalty awarded, tape reviewed, if they are judged to have dived the player would be banned for four matches.
I think that would really work. Players given an opportunity to fess up would no doubt prefer to save themselves from embarrassment and fines and play honestly.
“Hmmm…Lillingston is from where?
Posted by: Brian | September 14, 2009 at 07:14 PM”
That’s an important question. I only want him suspended if he is Latin.
At least that’s what some defenders of diving would have you believe.
Hmmm…Lillingston is from where?
There’s a HUGE difference between ‘going down easily’ or embellishing contact and absolutely fabricating a foul. To me, yes, sometimes an attacking player needs to make the ref make a tough decision, and often the only way a foul will be called is if the player goes down. But in cases like this one, the player has intentionally and deceitfully manufactured a situation to try to get a penalty (in the 93rd minute, even!). These are the situations where suspensions are justified.
While there’s no doubt some other factors at play, there’s no doubt that behavior like this is unsporting, it undermines the legitimacy of the game for fans, and it makes the job of refereeing more difficult. It needs to be dealt with aggressively.
No suspension. But please suspendplayers like Tony sanneh, Vagenas, Davis and any defensive mid lumberjack from Houston, Soumary, Jesse Marsch, Olson and his likeness. Please suspend any player that runs the ball into the corner flag to delay the game. Please suspend any defender that allows the ball to roll out of bounds while obstructing the offensive attacking player.
disgrace.
i hope chivas misses the playoffs.
what goes around comes around. want some proof? Maradona… Hand of God, robs England of possible WC glory. Maradona… might not even make the WC even though he has players like Messi and Tevez. JUSTICE.
Yes, divers should be punished and punished harshly. Diving (or simulation in the FIFA rules) is an automatic yellow card offense. But diving is a subtle form of dissent as well. Implicitly the diver is saying to the referees “you are not good enough to be here and catching in the act of breaking the rules.” Diving is not just an attempt to get something extra, in theory all fouls are like that, but an assault on the authority of the referee and on the integrity of the game.
Diving is not just a matter of personal stupidity, it is cheap, cowardly and it demeans the referee and most importantly it demeans the game. It is this latter affront that bothers me most as a referee. I have a pretty thick skin and I know that players and coaches don’t like every decision I make as a referee and I am comfortable with that.
I am not, however, comfortable with with players of the game demeaning the game itself. I am particuarly displeased with professionals demeaning the game and their profession. Their actions have an impact beyond the immediate match on the pitch Physcial contact is part of the game and sometimes that physical contact becomes a foul. But diving is worse that some physical play gone over a line–it is a deception and it is wrong. When pros committ these acts, their fans and the thousands of up and coming players see this activity, hear arguments that “it is part of the game” and it should not be treated harshly. But diving is not part of the game, which is why diving and simulation, if caught, is a 100% misconduct requiring the issuance of a yellow card. If a pro gets away with a dive, it is worse than some 15 year old high schooler.
Is my argument based on the role model argument? yes–and what is wrong with that. But the heart of my argument is that diving is NOT part of teh game and should be dealt with harshly by the MLS.
@aristotle:
You’re right, there aren’t many concussions or broken legs, but broken wrists and ankles as well as knee and back injuries are very common. I used to play basketball just about every day for a few years until I started getting back spasms, at which point I had to stop completely for about 1.5 years.
I think one of the big differences is that in basketball you can get bumped and bruised up and cut (fingernails!) all the time, but you can usually get out there the next day. With soccer, one good kick to the leg, especially without shin guards (that non-shin-guarded kick makes my leg hurt just thinking about it), can put you out for a significant period of time.
Baseball is, for the most part, non-contact in my eyes too. There are a few exceptions, though.
But it’s definitely true that soccer has an unfair stigma against it of being a weak or non-contact sport. Anyone who’s played the game or even known people who play understand that it can get very physical and dangerous.
p.s. Nice Kurt Rambis reference =)
“(and if you are one of those scumbags just look at the poll, 96%-4%. Hey, 4%, you idiots realize how stupid you are yet?)”
Sorry, but that’s an asinine comment. I don’t consider myself an idiot, I did vote No, and here’s why:
I think they SHOULD be empowered to punish diving after the fact. It’s disgraceful. However, I don’t think it should automatically be given a harsher penalty than it would be given at the time it occurs. My recommendation, thus, would be to give a Yellow Card warning after the fact. It would count towards yellow card points, and thus COULD result in a suspension, or could add up to one over time.
I think this (or any solution, really) opens up a can of worms. First, the Dive might well have had a bigger impact on the game. In the case cited here, it’s hard to argue that it impacted the outcome, but if it had happened 20 minutes early, maybe. Or, if the ref had given the red for a DOGSO, then it would have affected NE for the next game, too. Nonetheless, it’s tough to tie the after-the-fact punishment to the immediate impact for roughly the same reason that it’s hard to argue for a harder punishment for an equivalent foul just because it results in injury.
Second, leagues have to back up refs. If the ref sees the event, even incorrectly, it’s very hard to go back over it and leave any respect for the refs on the field.
There are other issues, but I still think that an after-the-fact yellow, with its attendant points, and its attendant stigma (hopefully), would be a justifiable position.
To reinforce it, and to recognize the despicability of diving, though, I would also support the idea that after a certain number of diving warnings/cards, there is an automatic suspension regardless of other card accumulation.
Still considering, but there’s my long-winded thought for now.
They could also give the ref the power to flash a special diving card when he thinks there has been one, which would carry a one game suspension without the ejection that a red card would carry.
A further note: If refs were more willing to call fouls when a player doesn’t fall down, perhaps diving wouldn’t be as much of an issue. I have witnessed a number of occasions when fouls should have been called but the player continued to fight and stay erect but loses the ball, and the ref never blows the whistle. It’s as if the refs are encouraging simulation.
Not sure MLS would want to do this as much as we’d like to see it. MLS referees have been very poor and subject to often deserved criticism from players, management, and fans alike. But it can be very difficult to differentiate simulation vs. actual take-downs. It’s easy for us when we see the replay from a better camera angle, but refs are human and it can be very hard to determine in real time what’s real vs simulation from his one angle on the field. (Can’t believe I am actually siding with the refs.)
And just like when it comes to the issue of overturning undeserved red cards (like Shalrie Joseph’s red against KC on 09/05/09), MLS wisely chooses to not change the decisions of its refs — thios is not a direction any league would take as it would undermine any authority the ref may have on the field. Therefore, creating an MLS committee to review tapes after a game and suspend divers is very unlikely. Also, considering the usually small number of cameras available at a typical MLS match, the league and/or any “Simulation Punishment Committee” wouldn’t be able to clearly determine many of these potential dives and very few punishments, if any, would be handed out.
Over the course of the season, the bad calls tend to even out for all teams.
gresh:
That is a good point that sadly never comes up. I’ve always thought that if I had been able to become a professional soccer player that I would have had serious problems with my teammates and manager because there is no way I would lie about or fake anything. If I won after cheating I wouldn’t even want the win. It would take all of the fun out of it apart from it being wrong. I know soccer is a deadly serious business but it is still just a sport and doesn’t mean you should be unethical to get a win! We’re sickened by corporate ethics but the majority of us feel it’s alright to cheat in a sport? Whatever happened to honor anyway?
Scott A:
Sounds like a good way to cut down on diving but I just don’t think there’s anyway that FIFA or MLS will do such a thing. They are overly sensitive to being critical of referees to the point where a lot of proposals to punish after the game have not been implemented simply because they say referees are human and make mistakes and we can’t keep second guessing them by looking at footage every game and basically pointing out what they missed or their mistakes.
This is a non-issue. And, I would add, often reflects hidden issues of ethnicity and playing style that people don’t want to talk much about.
Posted by: scott47a | September 14, 2009 at 12:18 PM
What hidden issues of ethnicity? You mean the fact that foreigners dive more than Americans do?
That wasn’t much of a clarification from Lillingston. Two match ban.
RT:
Actually, I was going to mention that I did play basketball regularly for a period lest someone thought that I too was making a judgment about a sport I had never played. I understand what you are saying about basketball, and a lot of the time it’s going to depend on how and where the game is being played, but I still found basketball to be far less injurious. In fact, one of the reasons I was playing basketball was because I simply could not play in league soccer anymore because the injuries were too much. It’s a little difficult trying to explain to your boss that you can’t come into work because you were injured playing in a soccer league!
The league play was much rougher than recreational play, but even the recreational play with it’s silent agreement of no reckless play that could result in injury, was causing some injuries because there was always the joker who thought the rules didn’t apply to him. I could barely walk for a week and still feel the injury sometimes to this day from a vicious kick to my ankle years ago in recreational play. I wasn’t wearing shin guards that protected the ankles because I forgot mine and had to borrow some from someone else. I figured what could happen in just one game of rec soccer!
When I played basketball I was not very good for a while because I had never played it up until that point so my shooting was awful. I found a way to be valuable to the team by shooting very rarely (as soon as they left me wide open because they figured I wouldn’t shoot!} and developed a pretty good passing and turnover game. This caused me to mix it up quite a bit because I spent a lot of time hounding players and trying to steal the ball. I was the Curt Rambis of recreational basketball! (LOL! I’m showing my age!) I was run over and elbowed quite frequently because of this but I was still able to play constantly and was lucky enough to not get as seriously injured as I did playing soccer. I could never have spent as much time in a week playing soccer as I did basketball. In addition to contact injuries I think there are a lot more strain injuries in soccer because it takes a large toll on the body even without contact. One final thing to consider is how many basketball players do you see out of action for extended periods of time with serious injuries in basketball compared to soccer? How many broken legs and concussions? I know they both have contact, I just take exception to people who have the nerve to tell me that soccer is a non contact sport, but basketball and baseball (don’t get me started with baseball!) are contact sports. The bias against soccer is so strong you will have people tell you there is more contact in golf!
I would like to see players begin to speak out against this to. I want to see players that make a habit of diving being called out by other players. Someone come out and question these guys manliness on a regular basis. You see it in other sports. Its pathetic that this guy thinks what he does is allright.
Aristotle, I agree that punishing simulation within a game is virtually impossible. I suppose it’s good that referees have the authority to punish it within the game, but you can’t expect somebody to distinguish when people can be such good actors. That’s why we need video evidence used after the game in *clear* situations. I’m certain that it would drastically reduce diving in a pretty painless way if utilized consistently
@aristotle:
I agree that there is much more contact in soccer than the casual fan realizes. Any sport involving cleats is destined for serious pain.
That being said, *your* comments indicate that you haven’t played much basketball. I recently got a friend of mine who’s been playing hockey all his life to try basketball and he’s shocked by the amount of damage inflicted just in regular pick-up games. It’s difficult to see how much damage is being dealt because players are often in very close quarters and there’s usually no blatant shoving/tackling/whatever. But a sharp elbow to the ribs of the guy you’re guarding is hard to catch from afar, but brutal to the guy taking the hit. Also, have you ever stood in front of a 200 lb. man and let him run full steam into you to take a charge? That is full contact.
Scott A:
FIFA already tried that and decided against it, unfortunately. I don’t know why they did because it seems like a no brainer, but I also always wondered what would happen if the two referees argued? You might need three referees to break the tie!
Scott A:
I’m not saying don’t punish diving. I’m just saying shirt pulling needs to come first and then see how much diving is left. Also, I don’t believe there is any way a referee can accurately make a call on diving consistently without the aid of an instant replay, and even then it might be tough sometimes. They already made a rule to deal with diving and how well is that working? The reason a referee rarely gives a player a card for simulation, as FIFA calls it, is because he knows he can’t be sure it was a dive. How will it help the game to have referees constantly giving cards to players who did not dive, but the referee thought they did but was mistaken. Sure every one in ten dives might be absurd and easy to spot, but all of the others are very tough calls. Let’s get rid of some of the reasons players have for diving. How many dives don’t happen if the player’s shirt isn’t grabbed by the opposing player? I think that’s a large percentage of dives gone from the game right there.
As a side note, anyone else think there should be two refs on the field? I haven’t thought about it too much, but it seems like it wouldn’t be a bad idea
chente:
How would a basketball player dive on a hardwood floor and pretend he is hurt? If he wasn’t hurt before he went down, he certainly would be after! Also, soccer is the loan sport among the sports you mentioned that have players getting their feet taken out from under them while they are off balance. Your comments indicate you haven’t played much soccer. There are a LOT of times when a player experiences a LOT of pain. That comment is total B.S.
A shin guard is very effective at protecting your shins and ankles from sustaining injuries when kicked, but the shin guard doesn’t do much for the pain. Let me take a bunch of whacks at your legs and feet while wearing studded cleats and see how much pain you experience. For people who haven’t actually played the game competitively it appears as though there is very little real contact made because the games contact is not very visual or obvious because most of the contact is done with the feet. The head and elbow contact is much more obvious but even that is hard to see. Whereas in sports like football and hockey the contact is much more dramatic looking because it’s mostly to the upper body and because the players are wearing a ton of equipment which makes them look big. Those sports are also closer up with the camera. (Before anyone replies, I’m NOT saying there is more contact or harder contact in soccer than there is in football or hockey, it’s just much less obvious, but there is definitely a LOT more contact than in basketball.
Diving and fake injuries are the main reason why FIFA should implement a Tape review to the game. When it happens, let the center ref call it as he sees appropriate so the play of game continues but have another official in the sidelines review the play and decide if a yellow should be awarded a few minutes later. Just like hockey when they review questionable goals. My two cents anyway.
Aristotle, apart from the part about not punishing diving, I agreed with every other bit of your post. Definitely the part about referees needing to punish the actions that cause a foul instead of reflexively holding off until the person being fouled hits the ground.
I swear to God ELAC–do not start throwing around the x word around when it is irrelevant again
yes. though i think the most unsavory part isn’t so much the dive as the wreathing about in pain afterwards. most of us have experienced maybe one or two events in our entire lives that caused so much pain… for players to do that regularly is embarrassing and i think it does hinder its support in the US. journalists and commentators who cover other sports (football, hockey, etc) and then try to evaluate soccer can’t really get past this feature of the game. so while punishing dives might not recruit any fans per se, it will at least reduce the mockery shown towards soccer on “rome is burning” and other such shows.
as for the comparison to basketball… i don’t recall ever seeing lebron james rolling on the floor and screaming after a foul!
i haven’t read everyone’s comments, so this might have already come up, but dives like this need to stop.
i know it hurt FC dallas when santino quaranta dove against them in the final minutes of their match a few weeks ago.
quaranta basically admitted to diving then too.
when players don’t even feel the need to hide the fact that they dove, it seems like the league may need to step in and start throwing some weight around.