Photo by ISIphotos.com
Peter Nowak's public criticism of Freddie Ljungberg after last week's 2-0 loss by Nowak's Philadelphia Union against Ljungberg's Sounders figured to cause a stir, but the lingering bad blood fostered by those comments and Ljungberg's response has led to an on-going war of words.
On one side you have Ljungberg, who criticized what he thought was over-the-top physical play by Philadelphia. On the other side you have Nowak, who accused Ljungberg of diving and trying to influence referees with play-acting.
Nowak went right after Ljungberg after the match with some scathing comments. Ljungberg then wrote on his blog about the injury to his back he blamed on a hard first-half foul. Ljungberg then followed up by calling Nowak's comments "low" and "pathetic".
Here is a video of the play in question, a first-half sequence that left Ljungberg on the ground and rookie Toni Stahl facing the first of two yellow cards he would receive on the night:
The video doesn't show much contact, if any, but Ljungberg hits the ground hard and gets up holding his lower back (there is a point where Stahl's leg goes behind Ljungberg where contact could occurred). Ljungberg has been reportedly receiving treatment on his back ever since and is questionable for Saturday's match vs. the Red Bulls.
So who is right and who is wrong? The truth lies somewhere in the middle if you ask me. Philadelphia certainly played a physical match with several indefensible tackles (including one UFC-style tackle by David Myrie), but Ljungberg has made a habit of diving and complaining to referees since arriving in MLS last year. That said, it would seem like a stretch to think that Ljungberg and the Sounders have concocted an entire charade to pretend Ljungberg was injured (though some Philly fans might argue he could have hurt himself throwing himself to the Qwest Field turf).
Who do you think is right in this war of words? Cast your vote here:
What do you think of the video? Starting to wonder if Ljungberg was injured by a foul, or do you see contact? Think Nowak was out of line for criticizing Ljungberg, or was there truth in Nowak's words?
Share your thoughts below.
some of the women do.
gamesmanship.
Me, too….
I met Freddy last year when the Sounders were training the day before a match. I saw him totally downdress and employee of NYRB who told him that there was no locker room available for their training that day. Totally uncalled for and over the top. I loved seeing him get a knee to the back and squirm on the field…
Fact of the matter is that it’s impossible to suffer the kind of spine injury he suffered on that play by flopping. End of story.
Alejandro Moreno gets fouled a lot too. Most fouled player in MLS over the last 4 years. He’s also been hurt by reckless challenges.
Does that mean he’s not a diver? He’s not a flopper – that’s reserved for the Carlos Ruiz’s and yes, Freddy Monteros – but he’s made a carrer out of drawing contact and going down. It’s an effective soccer strategy… but one that I don’t like to watch. Just because Freddy Ljungberg carries through after tackles when he still has the advantage doesn’t mean he doesn’t crumble to the ground when he loses the advantage.
Ljungberg is a great player when he’s playing, but far too often when he can’t beat a defender he goes down.
It’s effective, but every bit as bad sportsmanship as when Stahl kneed Montero in the back, and every bit as bad as when somebody hacks at Ljungberg because they can’t stop him.
You clearly didn’t see the match.
My thought exactly.
RSLFAN – You’re completely right! I mean, what do you want Seattle fan? It was a foul, but it wasn’t card worthy. Ljunberg’s injury isn’t serious and at most sounds like it will cause him to miss a few practices. Try being a RSL fan and watching your best player get hacked down by the leagues golden child, Beckham without a card on him. That foul nearly ruined Morales career and definitely ruined his MLS Cup.
I think Nowak has always been a joke, but this situation has been blown way out of proportion. I’m losing a lot of love and respect for Sounders fans by reading some of these ultra defensive remarks and responses to Ives and other posters.
You have a great team and a model fan base, but don’t treat every debate like all other fans are out to get you.
I still question the silly hair style. But I am a United fan.
Well nevertheless I too enjoyed the conversation. I got to get to sleep here as its late on the West Coast now. At least maybe this conversation sways my negative position towards the power of deliberative democracy……
Ives – if Ljungberg misses the game this weekend, will you admit that he wasn’t diving on that particular play? Or will you try to argue he picked up the injury somewhere else?
(SBI-Jesse, I won’t be making any arguments. I know what I see on the video and I don’t see how Toni Stahl caused a back injury to Freddie Ljungberg on that play. Just don’t see it. I’ve watched it repeatedly, and looked at the positioning of their feet as they come together and I simply don’t see where Stahl’s leg ever ends up looking like it impacts Ljungberg’s lower back. Now, if Ljungberg winds up missing a match, it can be assumed that contact was made. Hopefully he’s back on the field soon and playing like the player we all know he can be.
One question I do find myself asking at this point, after watching the play over and over, is how can people honestly say Stahl was setting out to hurt Ljungberg on that play? Myrie’s sliding in with a clumsy tackle, but what does Stahl do wrong on that play exactly? If he did, in fact, catch his tailbone with a knee, as some believe, I would chalk that up to a 6-3 guy challenging in on a 5-9 guy more than on Stahl having some plan to try and intentionally hurt Ljungberg, which is what some people seem to think.)
Love the site Ives. I’m a die hard sounders fan. That was a foul on Freddie. Whether or not there was much contact, it was still from behind and most leagues around the world would card for it for the intention. With that said, I think he is a diver as are a TON of players. MLS isn’t suited for the sifter European players and definitely not the south American players. I would complain too.
Love the site. Keep it coming. I think this is a good conversation.
-If you lead in with a knee up on the back of a player with the ball unplayable, you are asking for and should very well receive a yellow. The replay at that angle and the injury (he is, after all, holding exactly the point where Stahl’s knee had been, and the injury as described isn’t particularly consistent with the fall) are consistent with contact.
-Ljungberg embellished (moving in a way that had no relationship to the point of contact), as he and 90% of the world’s soccer players have a tendency to do to some degree (some more than others) when fouled. This is his M.O. in MLS, but while he may go down lightly, he does not tend to go down with nothing (dive) like, say, Moreno or indeed Montero.
-Given The first point above and the overall play of his team, the 20% (at the moment) that think Nowak is anything other than a gutless whine are pretty delusional. Stahl had no business coming in on Ljungberg like that.
Well I do think the angle on that video gives the impression that Freddie was not fouled that bad. Although if you watch this video http://www.soundersfc.com/media-library/Videos/Features/2010/03-March/100330-Riley-Back.aspx?svt=0
it shows two clips of the foul. YOu just need to fast forward through the James Riley segment (about 3/4 the way) until they talk about Freddie.
What i believe is that everyone is saying it was a foul to his back, when it was really a knee to his tailbone (kind of to the right side). You can see him holding that spot as he left the pitch in the first video clip. It happens fast and hard to see but I think he does knee him on that spot.
I also would argue that that the foul was not so malicious and probably not a yellow card and with Freddies attitude, every foul on him seems to be card worthy.
But anyone who gets injured in game knows that it can get worse before it gets better. I can easily see that injury causing some swelling and and forcing him out of practice a few days. That crap happens to me all the time throughout my rec season.
you saw everything right. don’t worry. get a good night’s sleep.
so now you’re giving freddie gripe for having style…even if it’s odd to you? sorry grub, i respect your other responses, but this was a total swing and a miss.
Holy Lord!
I read this entire comment section without watching the video. From Ives (and others) reactions I was expecting an angle which was useless…. But HOW are people not seeing the knee straight to the tailbone?!?! Seriously, am I missing something? Stahl’s knee goes up between FL’s cheeks and WHAMMY! I truly am impartial here (GO RSL), I’m just looking for somebody to explain to me what it is i’m seeing wrong
i respect your opinion and thank you for the discourse. i agree he moans too much, and he complains too much, but the resulting injuries point to contact. whiplash is aches and pains for sure, but they do not cause fluid build up similar to a serious hit to an isolated part of the body, similar to what ljungberg is experiencing.
I’m an RSL fan and I get the pleasure of watching Javier Morales play and he can go down easy and embellish a few calls. I believe he was the 2nd most fouled player in the league and I think a lot of you would agree he is in the upper echelon of talent in the league. He also took awhile to get used to the the physical play. He was attacked by the most talented, most well known player in MLS history…. David Beckham in the MLS cup and wasn’t able to play in 75% of the biggest game of his career.
My point is, the extremely talented like Javi & Ljunberg are so good with the ball that a lot of people don’t realize the brutal assault they take on a nightly basis. FL is more of a personality and someone who I think you can tell the Nowak wouldn’t like. I do think FL embellished, but i do think he got fouled on that play and got fouled a whole bunch more in the game that we are overlooking.
I also get to watch one of the best / most physical CB in the league in Jamison Olave and I see each game the power and speed he plays with and it is scary sometimes.
We have to do something to protect our stars from reckless tackles, but we also have to keep the stars and foreigners from diving / embellishing to get calls.
Go RSL! Keep up the good work IVES…
then please explain how his doctors described his injury and the affects of that injury as similar to taking a football helmet to the spine? how is falling on the ground, face first, similar to this? and when someone hits you from behind, at full speed, it is nearly impossible to contort your body in mid air to land on your side. the nfl calls it a “block to the back” and on replays no player can move to land on his side…they all land face first. so, regarding physics, please explain how this is possible.
Ives,
I love your site and agree for the most part. I’m a Seattle fan and we all are thrilled to have Freddie Ljungberg here and root for him and the team to the end. Seattle fans still get frustrated at the whining to the refs and diving of both Freddie and Fredy. In this case though I think it was an obvious foul with some embellishing rather than an out right dive.
In any case however, that paled in comparison to Nowak questioning Ljungbergs integrity and blaming him, Fredy Montero, the fans, weather or anything else he could think of in the press. It was despicable. Perhaps he should have vented himself more appropriately by looking in the mirror at his own questionable (borderline thuggish) tactics rather than focusing on Ljungberg.
Also, I realized I have been spelling his name incorrectly. For that I apologize. I think Ljunberg is a good player and I am glad he is in the league but he embellishes and moans a lot. Too much for me.
and from that one dive, doctors said his injury is similar to taking a football helmet straight to the spine, which has resulted in fluid build up that has limited his mobility and kept him out of practice for four days. pretty impressive for all that to happen with no contact. you are entitled to your opinion, but read the news. yes i keep repeating myself on this thread, but it’s because common sense is lacking.
Also, I remember Ljungberg as the guy who colored his hair with a red stripe and looked like a fool running around Highbury. Good character.
I’ll address your earlier post too. I watched the game live and failed to see the contact in all the views. I even questioned the contact while watching it live. To answer you other question, no I am un-athletic and fat so I have never played soccer before. Ryan, falling like that impinges the spine because the vertebra pinches the nerves that run into the legs. Have you ever heard of whip lash? How do people hurt their backs while being the victim of rear endings? There certainly isn’t any direct force going into their lower back. It is the motion of being jolted that causes the injury. I get it your a Sounders fan just think clearly about this. If there isn’t clear contact how did it cause the back injury? It was a foul, but Llungberg also flopped.
exactly, he hurt his back on the landing, not on the “push” or “knee in the back”. From personal experience of being knocked over or taken out, you naturally do not fall as he did. the natural instinct is to twist your hips as you fall to land more on your side rather than straight on your stomach with your arms pulled in. It was his landing that hurt him. 9 people out of 10 that land like that will have a back injury.
(but is still think he is a great player, but he did take a dive this time).
Stay on point? All it takes is one play for an American watching the game last thursday to see that dive, which in my opinion what it was, and turn it off to never watch it again. One play! It was a dive, plain and simple. I know you cannot see past your biased opinoin, but it was.
In general MLS refs tend to let things go, so the league is known to be very physical and rough. I don’t think this is good because creative players get roughed up and cannot do their thing as effectively. This also creates bad habits and it shows with the US National Team. The US seems to get a lot of fouls and get into card trouble. Some of it can probably be attributed to bad habits picked up in MLS and what the refs allow.
again, the post isn’t about ljungberg’s career and whether he dives, it’s about THIS ONE PLAY. the guy took a knee to his spine and still cannot practice. let’s stay on point, people.
they are respected goal scorers, but the average football fan knows their character. the same cannot be said about ljungberg.
Reading the article and all the comments made me want to post. Ives is not bashing on Freddie at all. He is simply saying that diving does NOT belong in soccer. I don’t care whether or not he was fouled the most time last year. What does that have to do with diving? Either you choose to dive or not. Are you saying that because he was fouled so much it left him with no choice but to dive? Regardless Freddie needs to cut the crap because as a star player in this league he has a lot of people looking at him. I just hope no americans who tuned into the game last thursday were turned off because of the diving. In no way am I bashing on the sounders. I consider them my second favortie team to watch to my L.A. Galaxy in the MLS. Please stop diving Freddie, do not give those anti-soccer americans any more ammo to ruin the game.
but kev, this whole post is about this one play, not freddie’s career. i’m a sounders fan and yes, i’m frustrated with his complaining, but this was a foul and this is the point of this discussion. if the post was titled “is ljungberg a diver?” then the comments would be different.
his back arches because he was hit in the back. a natural human reaction to being hurt is to move the hurt part of your body away from where it was injured. if someone hits your head, do you move your head closer to the hand that hit it? of course not. he took a knee to his back, and it arched away from the initial contact. this has nothing to do with his legs.
and ives, i told you this would happen. all these drones are looking at this one angle and making judgments, even though other angles clearly show he was hit. when the NFL uses instant replay, they use multiple camera angles for a reason.
ladies and gentleman, let me introduce you to ed, peter nowak’s spokesman!
you obviously have not read any of the doctor reports on his injury. and a knee straight to your spine is NOT like a sweep of the legs. they’re two different types of fouls. did you not read any of this post? he didn’t get his legs cut out from under him, he took a knee to his back, and still can’t practice. if you want soccer to have any respect in this country, statements as misdirected and as misinformed as this cannot be tolerated.
No problem here, I don’t like diving either, but is it a causal relationship? Is diving simply a tactical adaptation to physical play? I say its a factor, at least. The sad part is we, as fans, are getting played both ways (regardless of team affiliation). My impression is that if the MLS found a way (*HUGE* if) to reduce excessively physical play, it would be a heck of a lot easier to expose (and punish) the egregious divers. The video really does leave a lot for discussion though, and I appreciate the openness 🙂
please provide medical precedence where falling face first on the ground results in fluid build up on the spine, which results in leg pain and limited mobility, similar to “a helmet to the spine from a hit in american football” (to quote the doctor who worked on ljungberg postgame) and then i will listen to your argument. please. i can wait.
in this video, no, you can’t see the knee to the back, which was my complaint about using just this one shot in the first place. and have you ever been hit in the back and forced to fall face first into turf? i have, and your first response isn’t to grab your back on the way down.
yeah someone forced his left foot to drag on the ground, oh and his right foot followed. What if I lean back and yell, because obviously the pain of 0 to minimal contact should cause me to arch my back scream like a little pansy.
There’s NO misdirection of any of his legs proving there’s contact. NO ONE naturally falls down like that. I love this sport, but nothing pisses me off more than guys that go down with little to no contact. If you guys want soccer to have any respect in this country, antics like these cannot be tolerated.
“Ljungberg is hands down the most talented and most proven player in MLS.”
Hands down, huh? Pardon me while I chuckle.
He’s still got skills, for sure, but the dude is a bit past his prime. Any impartial observer who follows the game knows this.
Meh. Ives, I can’t tell if you’re ginning up controversy for the hits, or just trying to shore up your (over the top) initial pronouncement that Fredy was a diving cheat.
(SBI-I’m simply backing up my opinion. People can agree or not, but all the “it must be personal” or “you’ve got an agenda” talk is such a joke. That’s about as weak an argument as anybody can make when debating opposing views. Some folks just see things differently. I can’t say I would expect many Sounders fans to admit that Ljungberg could do anything wrong, but at least some are being reasonable about accepting that others can have a differing opinion.)
I’m simply saying that Freddie’s a whining flopper (albeit a talent player), even if he was fouled this particular time.
Ljungberg is a whiner but he is no diver. Ives has this one all wrong. From his responses to this thread, sounds like it’s personal with Ives for some reason. Nowak is the biggest doof of them all in all of this: what a creature.
(SBI-How in the world is it personal Scott? I’d say that some people I’m responding to are the ones taking it personal because I’ve dared to criticize Ljungberg. I respect the opinion of others and would ask others to do the same. Nothing personal about it Scott. You, my friend, have it “all wrong”.)
Eh…
Assuming there’s contact..are we not overlooking the fact that a challenge from behind should be a straight red?
Or have the rules changed?
Of course you don’t think he is a diver, he is your favorite celebrity on facebook! Michael take off the fan tinted glasses and be realistic.
He is a great player, needed in the league, we all want him on the field Saturday.
Does anyone shave in Seattle?
Dider Drogba; Cristiano Ronaldo. They never dove right? I am fairly sure those two are respected.
Nowak created this whole stir. His team played thuggish, skilless (aside from torres) soccer. Califf’s foul in the first minute showed what the Union’s intentions were all about. Nowak should shut up, take his medicine and try to field a better team.
He fell weakly causing whiplash to his lower back. (No resistance forced his body to contort). Please, point to the contact in the video against his lower back. Why wasn’t he grabbing his back pre-fall? His fall insinuated that his legs got caught by a tackle, causing him to fall forward. Also, his arms go out in the that all too familiar I’m about to dive position.
It was a foul, but Llungberg choose to embellish to entice a card. Therefore, Llungberg is in the wrong.
Nowak is a liar and a pathetic coach. Ljungberg is hands down the most talented and most proven player in MLS. Who is Nowak to call him out? You don’t become one of Arsenal’s all time top 11 and become one of the most respected players in the EPL by diving. Philly is quickly becoming the whinners of the league.