With Canadian reports suggesting that MLS could add multiple Canadian teams in the near future, we are left wondering just how serious MLS is about further expansion into Canada.
Montreal and Vancouver have long been linked with potential MLS expansion, and now reports are surfacing that a Steve Nash-led group is set to bid for a team in Vancouver, so the easy question is this: Is further MLS expansion into Canada a good idea or a bad idea?
It remains to be seen just how serious the Canadian expansion talk is. We are hearing about bids and interest but people in Cleveland and San Antonio can tell you all about seemingly strong MLS expansion bids falling flat.
Vancouver and Montreal do look like strong candidates though and they both appear to have the elements to make MLS consider them for the expansion slots after Seattle and Philadelphia join MLS in the next two years.
What do you think? Do you like the idea of multiple Canadian cities joining Toronto in MLS? Do you think MLS should focus on American cities? Is there enough talent in Canada to stock two, three or four MLS teams?
Share your thoughts on Canadian expansion below.
I can understand American fans wanting US expansion before Montreal & Vancouver, but the argument that you need US cities to develop US talent is false. Toronto has done more for young US players than Canadian so far. Hopefully we will see more Canadian players in the future which will be good for Canada & also for concacaf.
OSS – i wondered the same thing, it seems the kids are, and what i got from going down to cary, nc (railhawks) last month is that the average 20-40yr old could care less
just what i saw in that the only soccer talk i had was with a bunch of 12yr olds
A second team in NY (in Queens or Brooklyn) and either Montreal or Vancover makes more sense than Portland.
Erik K-
What about that friendly between NYRB and Chivas, that went over terribly?
montreal and vancouver – yay
ottawa – nay
i am with many of you – people in the seats and money in the owner’s pockets. large metro areas bring tv revenue – period.
3 teams in canada might draw a very lucrative deal from cbc, who knows…
this is the beginning of mls’s growth spurt and we should all be happy for the growth no matter where it is…
dallen-check a map
Aside from the rivalries these 3 cities have Vancouver is a 2.5 to 3 hour drive with no traffic, and that doesn’t include the lines at the border. Portland is a 3 hour drive and there is always traffic so it is like a 4 hour trip.
In my opinion it should remain an American league, but we know that money talks.
As a Seattle fan I would like to see Portlan and Vancouver added. Outside of of us Alaskans no one would care about those games.
I firmly believe that for the competition to be fair, all teams in the league must operate under the same rules when it comes to domestic and international players. Unless those rules are fixed somehow, I can’t see how adding more Canadian teams to the MLS makes sense.
why are people touting Portland? It’s way too small of a tv market.
As a fan in the Dallas area, with no connections to any of these locations… I would argue in favor of whoever draws the most fans. I hate seeing games with 8000 people. Based on the numbers I’ve seen, the top 2 soccer attendance numbers for non-MLS teams right now are in Montreal and Portland. So if I were commish and could give out 2 new teams, I’d go there first. Then if St. Louis or someone else wants a team, they can convince Chivas to relocate.
Also, I don’t want a team in the Southeast just for geography reasons. I just don’t see that as a really good market, and Miami can’t draw anyone for their team right now. I’d hate to see another disaster. It’s more of a college football/Nascar area of the country, and without high numbers of immigrants in most areas.
The league will only benefit if Montreal or Vancouver is like Toronto atmosphere wise.
I could give or take a team in Atlanta, Cleveland, or Pheonix, but I would like to see teams in FLA (Orlando), Carolina (Charleston would be cool but seems minor league), and most importantly St. Louis.
Atlanta – yes, Arthur Blank, the owner of the Falcons. He’s been looking into MLS and what it would cost (team, stadium, etc.). Atlanta’s a tough market because like Florida, so many people have their sports loyalties tied to where they moved there from. But Blank is a billionaire, so money wouldn’t be a problem.
I’ve commented here before on this, but the issue of a lack of Canadian talent to fill the rosters is a HUGE problem.
MLS’s rules limit the number of “international” players that can be on a roster. However, for American teams, this limits non-Americans, while for Canadian teams it limits non-Canadians. Because of the talent gap between the two countries, this artificially creates a HUGE talent gap between Canadian teams and American teams: Canadian teams are limited to fighting amongst themselves for the few talented Canadians that will make up the bulk of their rosters (all the roster spots other than the international spots).
So, I oppose additional expansion to Canada until this artificial problem is dealt with. I don’t think it is that difficult a problem to fix: treat American and Canadian players as essentially equivalent. Americans wouldn’t count as “internationals” on Canadian teams and Canadians wouldn’t count as “internationals” on American teams.
I don’t know why they don’t already do this (FIFA rules, maybe?), but until the situation is rectified, the creation of new Canadian teams will act to unduly harm the existing Canadian team and will act to further imbalance the talent in the league.
Another question:
Its all fine and dandy to want to expand in to the south east but is the south east really into soccer at all in all honesty??
Actually a team in Arizona would do more. Did you see the turnout for the US-Mexico ‘friendly’ last February? If you could get a fraction of those people involved, plus all the potential Latino market and youth talent, you would accomplish a lot.
Question (not sarcastic):
Has any group of people or rich persons openly expressed an interest in the MLS in Atlanta or is this just a wish of a few?
Right Freddy, because adding a second NY team is really expanding the reach in America…
Portland should be a must due to existing support.
I’d say Montreal is also a no-brainer for the same reasons as Portland. Plus they have a stadium already and built in rival with TFC. The non-sense about TFC not drawing talent is due to the turf, not necessarily the League.
Also, why the crap about the size of Montreal’s stadium? It’s 13,000 or so. That’s perfect. Let them start there, sell the thing out for three years, drive up demand and prices, and then expand. This BS of having to have 20,000 seat stadiums is garbage.
Hell, half of Europe plays in smaller venues. Ajax, one of the most famous clubs in the world, played in a 19,000 seat stadium until 1996. We’re so jaded by NFL and college stadiums.
I think it will water down the league significantly but it will also add another market or two that will have a chance of making a profit in the first season of operation. It depends on if MLS is more interested in opening up markets or becoming a stronger league. I personally think the league needs to stop expanding after 16 and put a few years into building deeper rosters and offering better salaries to its lower tier / developmental players.
So with all this Canadian Funding and support, how is it that we are draining US talent? Because we’ve taken up one of those spaces regardless of the fact that we will definitely field some US players, train those US players, and pay those US players?
Sorry man, not buying it. Do you really think a team in Arizona, is going to do well/help american soccer over a team that is established and supported in Montreal? If you really want to see American players get better why not drop the differentiation between US and Canadian players, I can assure you that a country of 30 million is not going to send a gross influx of soccer players south to a country of 300 million…
Go ahead and believe what you want, but itd be a mistake to pass over Montreal and Vancouver because you really think they will take away from American Soccer…
Interesting suggestion by Spencer of moving existing teams to Canada rather than the Canadian cities starting up new franchises. However the idea of Chivas USA playing their home games in Canada just seems odd.
i’m for any city that on a regular basis can put 20,000 as$es into the seats, when reading duNord match facts the attendance is the first thing i look at. North of the border, texas, stl, the south, it doesnt matter to me just a place that will draw people
I would like to see expansion into Canada (especially since Montreal would be a nice road trip for a Boston person like me), but first MLS really needs to hit the SouthEast first before heading north of the border again. The Carolina-Atlanta-Florida area is one large populated section of the US not covered. They need to place one (preferably two) teams in that region prior to placing one north of the border.
Looks like MLS isn’t following Sepp’s recommendation and is going for a 24 team league, huh?
Mike
I’m for expansion teams that bring
1) their own stadium or totally controlled venues
2) have rock solid big money investor/owners
3) more advertising $$$ & commercial support – TV/radio coverage
4) solid comunity support
5) and the big $$$ needed to pay up and join the league.
If that’s Montreal and Vancouver, great.
Whomever the next cities to meet those requirements outlined above will “deserve” their spot in MLS and force the other candidate cities to get their infrastructure set up quicker and pay the increased expansion fees before they get even higher.
MLS is wise to take its time and make sure teams 17 & 18 hit all the above prerequesites in order to show a solid blue print to membership.
For all the league has done wrong, its done way more right and continues to move in the right direction.
For long time soccer fans who remember the flirting excitement of the NASL and the dead zone between ’84 and ’96, I’d like to thank the Don and the league for setting a strong foundation for us soccer nerds to enjoy top flight, competitive soccer locally for the long haul.
I would like to see one in Indiana. Look at the IU soccer team. They average 6000 a game and its college. As a crew fan I already hate TFC and would be disgusted if more canadians came into our league.
No offense canada
I just don’t want to credit for something I did not say … the comment attributed to me where actually from 90:00 Soccer magazine
writer Greg dirio
http://www.90soccer.com/cgi-bin/datacgi/database.cgi?file=v90s&report=sa&firstrecord=0&finalrecord=9&&ar=814
i stand by the fact that id rather see the likes of STL and Portland get their teams first…. after that i guess its whomever can present the best offer
spence, we could throw NE and NJ in there too
Ives, what is the rule in USL for the canadian franchises ? Do Montreal and Vancouver have to field teams that contain mostly canadian players ? I think the canadian player/talent pool is the biggest question mark. When Montreal tied TFC the other day, how many canadian players did they have in the starting 11?
How a Canadian league would be funded, supported, and run would be a Canadian issue. When it comes to sports, there isn’t as much integration as it seems. There is one baseball team and one basketball team from the major sports that cross over. That’s by choice. Of course the NHL has gone over the border both ways, and the OHL has done so in the past 15 years. It’s Canada’s job to grow Canadian soccer, not ours. Put it this way – Toronto and Montreal want to be seen competing with bigger cities, which means the US. It’s that or compete against smaller markets on a smaller scale at home. So it sounds to me like they need us a lot more than we need them.
we need to focus on american cities. MLS is an American league and it’s fine if we have 1 team in Canada but we could easily expand to Portland, new york, Charleston. We need to focus on america
Its pretty simple – MLS needs TV revenue and contracts to succeed. Just look at the EPL for what a rich TV contract does for a league. and, Canadian teams don’t help with TV revenue at all.
So, I have nothing against adding Candian teams, but the focus needs to be on how to grow TV revenue. This will allow us to expand the crummy salary cap and add skill to the league.
Come on. Let parts of America get a team before Canada. The South doesn’t even have one team. Let Canada start their own league.
Can we please get a team in Atlanta or the Carolinas first?
I can assure you noone in Vancouver will support Seattle. Thatd be like NY supporting a NJ team…
montreal, st. louis, miami, nyc2, portland, vancouver, ottawa, atlanta… 24 teams… then close the league for 20 years.
I’m for it in one case, and sorry to the fans who support the current 3 teams, Chivas, KC, and Columbus all would have to be relocated for Vancouver and Montreal to get a team. We are basically at a place where there aren’t any excuses for a team that can’t draw 15k a game. We need teams in places where it can be done. Whether its Portland, San Antonio, Miami or in Canada I don’t care. But we need crowds at games and it seems as most of the new markets being picked ever since SLC and Houston have just been great for fan bases and Seattle will easily carry it next year just as Toronto did.
Puh leeeeeeez, lets stay away from the nonsense idea of a canadian soccer league, outside of our 3 big cities there is little interest in the sport, however in these 3 big cities there is enough support to fill stadiums and garner attention from nearby communities. We have tried an all canada league and it was pathetic as far as how it was run, funded and supported. How about we take away the NHL and make it all canadian players and teams? (same mentality). Like it or not we are intertwined together when it comes to sports. Two more teams will not dull american talent and if anything dull canadian talent for several years before we start to produce alot of our own (through academies and ideally tempting canadian players back to Canada with decent pay).
Cameron Banga –
I second that.
The arguement over Canadian talent is not so important. Take that guy Bare. There are alot of soccer players in the world. MLS just doesn’t pay. If there were more fans, they could pay more.
-Mike
as a vancouverite and a whitecaps supporter, i can see a MLS team in vancouver doing very well, however, i do not beleive a team should come to vancouver untill a proper SSS stadium is built in vancouver. The refurbished BC place stadium just isn’t gonna do it in my opinion…
Yeah but there are plenty of bets that are just as safe here. It just has to be nurtured correctly. Look at the ticket sales in Seattle and Philly already. Done right, I think you could get just as good a response in St. Louis, Portland, and NY.
Seattle covers the pacific northwest. I’m cool with Montreal, but Vancouver fans can just go to Sounders games.
montreal should be the next target of expansion, they have everything in place except for extra seating capacity which shouldn’t be a problem.
There’s so many teams in mls that can’t draw good attendances, why not expand where it’s a safe bet?
my top 3
1 portland
2 NYC
3 stl
Montreal, Vancouver yay.
Ottawa, Nay.
There currently isnt enough canadian talent but all 3 clubs are making great attempts to start academys for their local areas (which is more then the CSA has ever done).
As mentioned in hte posting/comments below i think Ottawa is a big big mistake. I do think that American cities with proven fanbase and/or support like St Louis and Portland should be a priority as well. I do think itd be a mistake to ignore these two cities while the attention and support is there. I dont think that Miami and NYC 2 will be snubbed if one or two of these cities are picked (there is alot of talk to making this a 20 team league)). Itd be good for soccer on the continent in general. Derbys would be intense on teh west coast between Van, Seattle and Portland. A Toronto-Montreal Derby could possibly turn into a regular riot, HA. It really is a win-win situation to bring both clubs in. Especially if they are willing to foot the bill.
No thanks. It sounds like there are even more groups up north interested (Ottawa, perhaps Edmonton and Calgary) – if so, they should start their own league. TFC has done a great job in marketing things right from the start and has great support. But one of the reasons for MLS from the start was to develop American talent and American soccer. If a good portion of the league is not America-based, then how much does that compromise this goal? It’s more in our interests to grow more markets here before we talk about expanding elsewhere. Our neighbors up north will say what they did two years ago, that their own league isn’t feasible. That’s their problem, not ours.
“I’m a Crew fan that lives kinda between Columbus and Cleveland and would prefer a team in Cleveland before another Canadian club. The battle of Ohio would be fantastic.
Posted by:Richie B | July 24, 2008 at 02:25 PM”
I can see the headline now: “Raucous crowd of 1,250 sees Columbus down Cleveland.”
I think Canadian expansion is a good idea.
I think it is awesome.
Montreal and Vancouver will draw very well.
I don’t think anyone can argue that Toronto has been unbelievably successful in bringing the MLS to Canada. That’s clear as day.
I guess the real question is all of Canada that crazy about soccer or is it just the Toronto area? If Vancouver and Montreal can bring the same fan base/atmosphere as Toronto then without a doubt they should be added to the league. If not, well then it’s arguable that expansion should first go to other areas like St. Louis.
I’m a Crew fan that lives kinda between Columbus and Cleveland and would prefer a team in Cleveland before another Canadian club. The battle of Ohio would be fantastic.
Montreal:
So they have a stadium, but it would need to have about 6,000 seats added to bring it up to MLS standards. The owner of the Impact, which plays in the USL, has plenty of money. The problem I have is that another team in Canada is going to make both that franchise and Toronto FC much weaker. Lets face facts, TFC already have a hard time getting quality Canadians to play for them. MLS has made special rules to allow them extra international slots, but those exceptions will run out, and TFC will have to draw on more Canadian talent. That’s already going to weaken the squad. Imagine what will happen if they are fighting for the Canadian scraps with another Canadian team.
Ottawa:
The owner of the NHL’s Ottawa Senators has seen how well TFC has been doing and has decided to jump on the bandwagon and throw his name in the MLS mixer. Well he can jump right back out as far as I’m concerned. There is no history of soccer in Ottawa, no USL team that I’m aware of, and this seems to be a very late entrant into the race. It sounds nice to round out the field, but in reality, it’s like putting a Clydesdale into the Kentucky Derby, there’s just no chance of Ottawa winning.
Vancouver:
Here we are again with another Canadian market with a strong USL side. The ownership is filthy rich as well. Those are both plusses. But Greg Kerfoot has been bogged down in red tape for years while trying to build a SSS on land that he already owns. That doesn’t bode well. Also throw in the same concerns about the talent pool available to a Canadian team, and Vancouver is looking a bit less attractive. It’s probably the best choice for a Canadian market, but there are better markets in the US out there.