By IVES GALARCEP
It is a topic consistently pushed by a vocal minority, but perhaps one that more and more American soccer fans are interested in discussing. Promotion and relegation is a fixture of club soccer around the world, but is not something practiced by Major League Soccer, which isn’t going to change any time soon.
So why even discuss it? Pretty simply to get a sense of just how many SBI readers would actually prefer to have MLS operate in a pro-rel model.
The argument for promotion-relegation has its merits. The threat of relegation is strong enough to push teams to excel and can rid a league of under-performing clubs, while also creating plenty of drama as teams push for the title and to avoid being relegated. The model works very well around the world.
The arguments against it range from the obvious questions about the threat it would pose to clubs’ financial futures given the current state of American lower divisions, to the inherent preference among American sports fans for a playoff format over a pro-rel format. MLS president Mark Abbott has already gone on record saying pro-rel will never happen in MLS, something echoed by commissioner Don Garber and U.S. Soccer president Sunil Gulati.
Now it is your turn to let us know what you think. Would you prefer MLS be run with promotion/relegation, or are you happy with the league the way it is?
Cast your vote after the jump:
What did you vote for? Think the idea of promotion/relegation is worth discussing, or feel it is a waste of time? Ever see it being adopted by MLS?
Share your thoughts below.
The poll poses the wrong question. It should be, “should the USSF adopt pro/rel?” MLS has a vested interest in keeping their single entity model intact with zero competition. They are not the arbiters of policy in US soccer. The federation is.
BINGO!
Pro/Rel is definitely the best, by far, of what we have with the MLS. The main reason is that it provides the entire country to become involved, have a country-wide interest, and be invested in Pro-Soccer. Every team/town/city/fan base has something to play and look forward to. Having a chance for a 2nd or 3rd div. team to move up provides tremendous fan interest.
This will never work in America. Our pro-leagues in all sports don’t do that. They have their league with each team having an owner and a commissioner hand-picked by the owners to do one thing. Protect their investment, put more money in their pockets and the number one, keeping all competition away. Protecting and maintaining their monopoly and total control over their assets (the players) at all costs. The fans are just a very little bit more than an afterthought.
Red Bulls FO & ownership are so awful, if there was relegation they’d be so far down, you’d have to throw a rock and listen for the ping!
“Probably. I wouldn’t mind seeing pro-rel in MLS, but don’t think it is a must.”
i feel like this is a bad choice. “probably” is leaning towards “yes” while “I wouldn’t mind seeing pro-rel in MLS, but don’t think it is a must,” is basically saying “i see both being viable options”. which is basically the same as the option ” I would be happy with either format, whether pro-rel or the current one.” i’d motion to change the 2nd option to:
“Probably. I am not sold on MLS’ current structure being an improvement from pro/rel.”
I think it could work if instead of the bottom three going down to a lower division, only 1 was relegated via a playoff with the champion of the league below. This might seem crazy but it would shirk off the dead weight and allow deserving smaller teams into the market. Take for instance chivas USA–it might be good for them to drop down a division to get their finances in order and bring Sacramento into the league for as long as they could earn it.
I think it could work if instead of the bottom three going down to a lower division, only 1 was relegated via a playoff with the champion
The only answer is YES! The sooner it happens, the better it is for the sport and the players in the US.
However, it won’t happen in the Garber era and for as long as the single entity shackles are in place (for me the anecdote of the year is how Jermaine Jones “picked” a team from the MLS)…
And apparently Garber was recently appointed dictator for life…
I say absolutely and why do I say that? There’s some many teams that want to join the MLS such as Sacramento, Las Vegas, San Antonio I can go on and on, so why won’t MLS make a proper Second Division league in which you can add all these new franchises and let them build their team as best of their ability to try to get promoted into the MLS. I just don’t understand why this is being so difficult to being accomplish while we are trying to grow this sport in the United States.
The major obstacle I see preventing this from happening now is the gulf in resources between the leagues. Pro/rel probably won’t happen until there’s enough parity between the top teams in the non-MLS leagues and the rest of MLS (obviously some clubs are beyond being reached, LAG and NYRB among them) to spark enough debate about whether the best NASL/USL Pro team could hang in the MLS, or if the worst MLS team would dominate in a lower league. But the real trump card is money. MLS owners aren’t going to want to be allocated less after being relegated, enough for them to throw their weight and dough behind lobbying against the adoption of a pro/rel system.
I don’t see any of the positions taken in the promotion/relegation argument being good or bad on their own, however, what I think we need more of is real analysis of why pro/rel may or may not work. I’m not talking about the merits of it working or not (i.e. the argument that it would spur clubs on to invest to avoid being relegated vs. having a financial franchise and infrastructure model that isn’t built for volatility), but rather actual studies, statistical forecasts, etc. that would help prove a particular case.
On these blogs and forums it is easy to say, “Oh, our ownership model simply can’t support it” or “the threat of relegation will make clubs invest and care, like in other leagues,” but those are arguments that we throw around and never seem to be based on anything substantial. So, can anyone point to any study that has actually looked at this debate as a business care, a forecast model, an academic paper, etc. with supporting evidence of this working or not working in the U.S. and Canada? Of course soccer culture and the business of soccer is going to evolve and the evidence is going to change one way or another in five or ten years, but I want to know if anyone is or has been working on the numbers? I’m sure MLS, NASL, USL, and the USSF have – and likely won’t be keen on divulging their information – so are there any soccer blog geeks out that know of a real third party feasibility study?
Feel like geeking out? Here is a model from a 2002 Stanford paper. I don’t really care for it, but it should scratch your itch a bit…
http://web.stanford.edu/group/siepr/cgi-bin/siepr/?q=system/files/shared/pubs/papers/pdf/01-16.pdf
The Deloitte Annual Review of Football Finance is always a worthwhile read and they touch on the subject a number of times.
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/uk/industries/sportsbusinessgroup/sports/football/annual-review-of-football-finance
Thanks!
Reading through the comments, they make some huge assumptions. The Pro/Rel guys act like it would be just like England…it will never be. Garber already said so. and MLS is going nowhere.
The Pro MLS guys like me…well we stayed home, but if we did say anything it would avoid the same. which leads to….Is there a better way ?
The debate should be, in a parity league is it possible ? The owners aren’t idi ots, they understand a non-parity league will yeild similar results….ie no money, small biz like most of soccer.
Teams in England drawing 20-30k, “the top” soccer league in the world ? Yay sign me up !!!
So can they do parity in a Pro/Rel setting ? MLS will be the biggest and best in the world either way, so if you NEED Pro/Rel you better solve that….. Good luck.
Dumb question. Of course promotion/relegation would be ideal. Having drama at the top and bottom of your league beats just having drama at the top.
But promotion/relegation doesn’t yet make sense for this 20 year old league.
common misconception if you ask me. the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, etc. only have drama at the top when it comes to the drama most people care about…which is winning the league.
yes, there is drama at the bottom but it’s not the right kind of drama. in MLS, there is drama throughout because anyone has a chance to win due to the parity. sure, we lose out on the drama associated with relegation, but again, that’s not the ideal drama.
to me, the ideal situation is pro/rel with parity. then you have drama top to bottom and everyone has a chance to win (unless your organization is run like the Oakland Raiders). but hey, even Oakland used to win!
FFP is trying to do this, but it’s WAY too late in the game. and frankly, i’m not sure it’s even possible. sounds like Utopia to me.
Look at the various subplots you have in the EPL/Championship:
1. Who will win the league?
2. The battle for 4th.
3. Who can qualify for the Europa League spot(s)?
4. Staying above 18th.
5. Who can finish top 2 in Championship?
6. Finishing in the promotion playoffs spots (3-6)
7. The richest match in football
You wouldn’t want those type storylines in MLS?
#narrative
Subplots 4-6 only exist because enough people in England care about the teams involved in them. Until that is true in the US, we may as well ask, “Wouldn’t you love to see flying unicorn cats?”
You don’t think the Chicago/Montreal/Colorado/San Jose/Chivas USA fanbases wouldn’t want a little something more to be interested in right now?
Some of the EPL’s best stories involve the great escapes (Sunderland 2013-14).
Skelton,
The problem is that the “Chicago/Montreal/Colorado/San Jose/Chivas USA fanbases” have far too much to be interested in right now. Meaning, they’re interested in stuff that has nothing to do with soccer—you asked about the “fanbases,” not the “fans.” US Soccer’s problem is that so far it has been unable to win enough fans out of the fanbase.
Add to that the high likelihood that relegating Chicago/Montreal/Colorado/San Jose/Chivas this year would only hurt their ability to attract fans. At least this year, Chivas/Montreal/et al season ticket holders get the treat of watching their teams host—albeit lose to—stars like Dempsey, Donovan, Henry, Zusi, etc. etc. How many tickets do you think those clubs would sell next year when they face off against…umm, errm, what’s that one guy’s name who plays for Tampa Bay?
1. Everyone has that, regardless of structure…
2. Yeah the battle for 4th is SO exciting. Sounds like the equivalent of conference finalist to me. Or maybe the wildcard berth.
3. Sounds like qualifying for the playoffs to me
4. Like I said, there is a loss in drama surrounding relegation, but there is similar drama for bad teams in other structures…just look at the 1-15 Dolphins, 0-16 Lions, or the 2013 DC United team.
5. sounds like not only qualifying for the playoffs, but qualifying as the top seed. the playoffs bring out the same passion in terms of how much those games mean to fans.
6. i’d rather have, “going from worse record in MLS history to 1st in the Eastern Conference the next season,” as a story line.
point is, i could do the same exact thing for story-lines that result from drama within a typical American structure. just look at MLB. even though i’m a baseball fan, i know that no one gives two sh!+s about the baseball season. but come October, everyone is watching and talking about it. as long as there is a passion for the game in the market, there is a quality product, and the structure is familiar to the market, a league has more than enough to be successful if they execute their strategy right. the drama will come naturally.
i’m fine with it as is. this idea that we must have pro/rel to be successful is ridiculous. Europeans may not understand our sporting structure here in the US. the idea of having a champion who possibly didn’t even play another team in the same league is crazy. that’s fine. but every tournament uses a similar game structure where the WC winner or CL winner didn’t play a number of teams that were included in the tournament. it’s just the nature of the beast. while i think pro/rel is awesome, i think a divisional/conference with playoff structure (i.e tournament structure) is also awesome.
they’re both different. they each have their pros/cons and we could all debate them forever. but right now, it’s irrelevant. the thing that will grow the game the most is just the continued growth of the game, in terms of popularity, here in the US. in addition to that, MLS has to grow and start spending enough money to have teams that are attractive to fans. there has to be a solid product and there has to be demand. inserting pro/rel is not going to magically help in either department at the level some people would have you believe. and even in pro/rel, there HAS to be some kind of passion for the game. if that didn’t matter, then pro/rel basketball in Spain would be bigger than the NBA. it’s not because 1. they don’t have the same passion and 2. they don’t have the top players. it has nothing to do with the structure.
once the game is established in the US and MLS is at a level where we can make a valid argument for it being a top 5-10 league in the WORLD, then we can discuss the idea of pro/rel. until then, it is not viable. and as i mentioned at the start, even then i would still stick with the playoff format that is so popular here in the States.
I am only for PRO/REL when it is economically viable. At this point introducing PRO/REL would be tremendously risky and financially makes little sense to owners when they have rich guys starting to line up groups that will put down $100M on a team and invest in infrastructure that ultimately improves the product and the potential national TV footprints.
Wow, we have hit a new low. Quite frankly this site is so good, I never even could see this far down.
Not anymore I guess….Enjoy ?
I’d like to see it, but it’s not going to happen anytime soon as the soccer system isn’t unified, and probably won’t be anytime soon.
I would like to see a compromise where lower teams can get promoted, but understand MLS protecting their franchises. I would love to see US Soccer require MLS to allow NASL to purchase 2 or 3 expansion slots.
2 slots – NASL Cup Winner & Higher team from previous year in MLS stay. Lower one drops back to NASL
If they would get 3 – Top 2 NASL teams playing in MLS remain, and the NASL Cup Winner moves up. Or you could make teams 2 & 3 play in the NASL Cup.
US Soccer could mandate the team gets to apply their own rules, so the Cosmos could spend as much as they wanted if they get promoted. Forces MLS to compete.
Obviously however many MLS slots NASL gets, USL Pro would get that many in NASL and so far down so leagues stay the same size.
Ummmm, Question of the day? More like QUESTION OF THE CENTURY!!!
MLS is shaking in fear at the masses converging on it’s gates (Alex Jones, you know what’s up)!
You can not stop the will of the oppressed masses! We are no longer asleep, we are no longer blinded by your lies, MLSatrix! We have taken the blue pill!!!! fyi, it did have weird taste to it, BUT our eyes are open, and whew, this feels weird man. Feeling so light and colorful. Wow, the #@%! I’m seeing is, is, is, so colorful, and flowing and whoa! The keyboard is moving! uh, is this suppose to be happening, uh, everything is starting to swirl and melt together, ahh guys? GUYS! why is everyone staring at me, they know, THEY KNOW!!!!
How can you even argue against it? We are #winning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE8uAGRYBng
MLS would have to set up there own second division first. Owners aren’t going to pay the 100 million dollar buy in fee when they could spend a fraction of that on a NASL club and get promoted the next year. There’s really little chance of a partnership between the 2 leagues in that form ever.
I’ve thought that MLS could turn NASL or USL Pro into an MLS 2 and share some revenue with those teams under a larger two-tiered single entity system. However, I’m not sure promotion/relegation works with this system. That said, it would provide a unique element to soccer in the US and might help it stand out from other teams. I would also like to see the league split into two conferences east and west, with a balanced home-away schedule and one game against each team from the other conference to determine the supporters shield. This could provide an exciting regular season, with teams fighting to win the conference like a European league, to win the shield, to avoid regulation, and to make the playoffs (which frankly I would prefer limited to 4 teams).
I’m pretty sure this is the goal for MLS once the league reaches 24 teams. You would have two 12 team conferences. You would play everyone in your conference twice (22 games) and everyone in the other conference once (12 games). That would be 34 games, which is the current number of games per season.
I would like it but to say yes to pro/ rel brings up more questions than answers and would require a paradigm from the single entity structure. It would require some kind of paradigm. Right now I enjoy the parody of MLS and would hate to see that go away.
It’s fun to talk about but the soccer powers brokers are the only ones that really matter.
I think u meant parity* not parody. Pronounced the same, but very different meanings. Agree w ur post tho.
Pro/rel may have worked well in the rest of the world in the past but I question whether that will continue, at least in leagues that have adopted financial fair play and penalties for non compliance. Just look at England. The parachute payments given to teams relegated from the premier league are larger than ever as a result of the new TV deals. I dont know how teams in the Championship will be able to compete with the relegated teams for promotion to the premier league in the future, now that rules have been made to limit the amount of debt a team can take on to 3 million pounds. A relegated team with parachute payments will have a 16 million pound head start for several years. Even if a Championship teams has a rich owner, he can only add another 5 million to that debt. I see this really limiting the number of teams that will ever have a chance of promotion to the premier league. It will be the same teams at the top AND the bottom of both leagues. Not all that exciting really if that occurs. MLS and fans who want pro/rel should follow what happens in England closely over the next few years to see how it works now that financial fair play is a part of the picture.
absolutely man. and talkSport has talked about this a lot recently. pro/rel has major flaws and they’re starting to show. pro/rel will always mean a complete lack of parity outside of the top 5 teams (if not less). a league where only 25% of the teams have a real shot at winning is hurting the potential of the league. there is no reason why a league like the EPL should not be financially bigger than the NFL. the NFL is only popular in the US while the EPL has the entire world to generate revenue from. the problem is that only the biggest teams draw a significant global audience and so while Manchester United may be richer than any NFL team, the average NFL team is worth more than the average EPL team because the smaller teams offset the big guys. and even still, the Cowboys aren’t that far behind the top European soccer power clubs.
the most important thing we can learn form Europe is how to run youth academies. since soccer players start younger, our way of doing things for baseball and football, as a example, is not going to work. and of course, the whole “pay to play” thing needs to be set on fire.
I would love to see pro/rel, but of course not at the expense of the league’s future. Another factor is whether the second teir of American soccer is good enough yet that their top 3 teams r good enough to replace our worst three. It will be pointless until we reach that point.
I love that picture, cosmos will take red bulls place sooner than later 🙂
And my answer for promotion relegation is definitely yes but once MLS expands to 28 teams and starts an MLS 2, but the pro/rel that MLS needs to have is a unique style and easy to begin with.
Like I said before, no MLS 1 teams would go down and MLS 1 would reserve 1 or 2 spots in each conference and it would be up to MLS to decide by points or playoffs.
As for MLS 3 and MLS4 there should not be pro/rel, only between MLS1 and MLS2.
Nope.What we have right now is fine and works quite well.
Besides, it ain’t happening anyway – not anytime soon.
Every team which goes down would end up relocating due to lack of interest like it somwhat happens in Mexico (they only have relegation due to tradition’s sake, there’s always talk of removing it). No thanks. It’s enough as is.
+ 1
Mexico really is a better comparison then most European countries because of the size in geography of the league.
The idea of pro/rel in MLS is pure fantasy. It will never happen. There is no way that owners that plunked down $100 million plus to be able to operate a team in the league will allow their investment to be degraded by a mechanism that was not in place at the time they bought in. The lawsuits that would arise from this would would kill the league almost immediately.
It think your right in that owners wouldn’t agree but I see this blog post by Ives as simply a fan opinion pole only asking, would you like it? It’s hard to separate reality from a hypothetical fantasy scenario but that’s mostly how I look at this discussion.
Voted no. I would love to see it as a fan and it would definitely make the regular season more entertaining. But there is not an acceptable second division to be relegated to! A legit and entertaining second division with the majority of teams having their own stadiums/grassroots support is a must before this could even be considered. Maybe if MLS bought out the teams in NASL and USL Pro, then combined them into a MLS2 that would be a start, but even then it would take some time to grow.
There’s a difference between MLS adopting pro/rel within their enclosed business model
and USSF declaring an open pyramid in the United States
The first seems less unlikely. Everyone who wants in to MLS2 will have paid a franchise fee to keep the Bob Kraft-types happy.
I can’t imagine either happening in my lifetime
I would love it,and think it would legitimately spur investment in smaller markets across the country in the pro game, one of the big issues without it now is investors outside MLS really have no end game or ability to invest over time to be with the best. That said, its a pointless discussion, MLS will NEVER allow it in my lifetime and USSF wont force the issue. So yeah.
I used to be firmly against the Pro/Rel idea about 4-5 years ago for one main reason: I thought people would lose interest in their local teams if they were relegated to the second division, and those teams would subsequently fold. At the time, my prime examples were FC Dallas, Chivas, and KC Wizards. The league has grown so much since 09-10, though, and KC is the perfect example of how it can thrive.
I still think we won’t see Pro/Rel in the Garber era because MLS looks out for owners’ rights (like any professional North American sports league). Franchise owners bought into MLS the way it is, and Garber doesn’t want to just change the rules on his investors. For all those who have said it already, single entity needs to go before this becomes a reality.
The idea of promotion-relegation is a fantasy at the moment, that much is obvious. I have to admit however that the relative meaninglessness of the regular season is a big part of what keeps me from becoming more involved as a fan. I don’t know how it would happen in a top-down franchise model like MLS but I would love to see it.
No. MLS is not stable or fully formed enough to handle pro/rel and it will never work in a tight salary cap, single entity system where a large amount of parity is baked in intentionally. Pro/rel works in large part because there are enough super-rich, super-supported teams, at the top of the A division that, as John Oliver pointed out on Letterman the other day, have zero chance of ever being relegated. In other words, the A division is basically a stable enterprise, which allows for consistent fan support/rivalries/marketing/budgeting/player needs etc. What MLS can offer now, and is essentially doing, is promotion without relegation. Second or third- tier teams that find rich owners and can build a stadium are almost certain to join MLS directly — not an option in England or Spain. Rather than adopt pro/rel, the better course would be to expand over time to two 18-team divisions and work out reasonable playoff that adequately incentivizes regular season performance.
“The model works very well around the world.”
I disagree I do not like the PRO/REL it tends to only makes the rich/richer and the poor/poorer. In most leagues the system allows for the same teams to stay at the top and allows the other teams on an annual basis to fight for the opportunity to play those teams the next year and once again go through the same struggles. Being a fan of a team fighting relegation on an annual basis is not enjoyable. I never want to see the system in the US and I had my preference it would be eliminated the world over. No I am not a troll and I am dead serious.
I think pro/rel in its purest form is amazing. However you can say the same for many political systems around the world before they are corrupted by money. Take for example the story in France the small village team that had a 500 seat stadium making it all the way to ligue2(?) Only to get demoted by reasons no one can explain. Or even Hoffenheim that had a small team but they were bought by a multimillionaire and brought through the divisions. Again when hit with money and business ambitions the pro/rel system is tarnished. But imagine supporting a small team and seeing them make it to the big time… those are what dreams are made of.
That was really depressing…
I have to say I have no idea where Ives got the idea that this is “working very well” around the world. Perhaps he should brush up on the finances of most of the world’s top leagues, and see how precarious it has become. Totally unsustainable.
And by the way CSD, I think you are 1000% dead on right.
What first-tier leagues have actually voluntarily adopted pro/rel in the post TV-money era? Ask most of them and I bet they’d tell you they are dying to ditch it but it is too deeply entrenched.
I feel the current MLS business plan is allowing them to build the league smartly by not allowing teams to go into debt for the sake of winning. They are on a nice steady pace and need to build as the fan base and income generated by fans (thus advertising etc) increases. The MLS territory has over 350 million people. A far greater number than the EPL if you are just looking at population. However the EPL, Serie A, La Liga are all world wide brands and I don’t know how long it will take for MLS to compete with that. That being said I do think the relegation system does make for very interesting viewing. I also have quite a few friends in England that are supporters of in the Championship and L3 and L4 and they love the system. Unfortunately for the EPL it does not really have what I would say is a desired consequence of allowing lesser teams with lower income potential to really compete. They way they do it now they will still have the big 4 or 5, the typically middle of the pack and then the weaklings (Newcastle included).
a lot of the European Leagues have that “big 4 or 5, the typically middle of the pack and then the weaklings” because there simply are 4 or 5 big cities and then a spectrum of smaller cities. Imagine if Texas had its own league; the standings would rarely differ from 1-4 Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin, 5-10 El Paso, Fort Worth, Arlington, Lubbock etc.. Longview, McAllan and Odessa would really take a miracle season to compete with the bigger teams.
In the entire USA & Canada we have multiple huge cities and even more (way more than 24!) cities/metro areas that can compete with anyone.
Pro/Rel is great and provides drama at both the top and bottom of the table! Will it work in MLS… no and never, in my opinion. I just don’t think it works in North American sports (US & Can). Is there any other league NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL that can support a pro/Rel system? I don’t think so and neither will MLS. If those Billion dollar institutions can’t work a pro/Rel system I don’t see how MLS will.
Is there any other league NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL that can support a pro/Rel system?
first off, any of these leagues could if they wanted to but they are built very differently from the beginning… MLS being so young we are confronted with the decision
but my question to you is; how will MLS gain any ground in this country’s crowded sports scene? By providing an inferior (at times cheaper – often the same cost or more) imitation of the other domestic leagues? no! They can step around and over these other leagues by joining the rest of the world and adopting a globally (including in the USA & Canada) popular system.
In every measure the MLS is growing and is gaining ground. I think that fact negates your whole argument that they have to have a new structure to have success. The fact that costs for entry into the league continues to rise at a rapid rate even further negates your argument that they do not have a business model that supports growth.
To answer your question… They already have. In 20 years they’ve arguably overtaken the NHL. They compete with the NBA in attendance. And MLS is a great atmosphere over MLB (of course I’m biased on that ;)). Forget trying to copy the rest of the world! I want to see MLS thrive and they don’t need pro/rel to do that.
“By providing an inferior (at times cheaper – often the same cost or more) imitation of the other domestic leagues? no! They can step around and over these other leagues by joining the rest of the world and adopting a globally (including in the USA & Canada) popular system.”
So you recommend providing an inferior version of other international leagues?
As stated above, MLS is making tons of progress in closing the gap. Things are actually going fantanstic.
And exacty where did you get this idea that pro/rel is “globally popular”? It is a rich-get-richer mechanism that has created a situation where only 3-6 teams in any country have any hope whatsoever of winning the domestic league. EVER. The costly threat of relegation continues to create a caste system that we’d be much better off without.
All systems have flaws. As I posted above, MLB is the closest thing to pro/rel just players get promoted and demoted as opposed to teams.
Pro/Rel single table no playoff Strength: makes the end of the season more meaningful for top of the table and bottom of the table (top of the table fighting for title and Champions League, etc… while bottom of the table fighting to stay up.
Weakness: Middle of the table teams that have nothing to play for at the end.
American System Strength: Teams fight for playoff spots and then the playoffs add more drama into crowning a champion as opposed to a team running away with it and winning a few weeks before their last game (Man City 2011-2012 an obvious exception).
I’m not advocating against playoffs, I like them a lot (and honestly there are playoffs in Europe, it’s called Champions League, only difference is it’s played the next season. Think of each league as a division in one massive European League) but like I said each system has strengths and weaknesses, Just depends what we want really.
Promotion/Relegation would work best in College Football if NCAA disbands and starts paying their athletes (which will never happen). You got at least one FCS team in every state so it’s pretty grassroots and every team would want to try and get to a major FBS bowl.
Forgot to add….
American System Weakness: Teams can get eliminated from playoffs and have nothing to play for. Bottom of the standings teams become really boring unless you’re fighting for a draft pick or something.
Even if you went to pro/rel you are going to have that problem. This isn’t like the EPL where there are UCL and Europe League slots to play for… only CCL slots. So teams sitting in safety after a certain point don’t have much to play for.
College football & basketball are the closest to being able to support pro/rel. Lots of similarly situated teams with substantial geographic coverage. Similar rules for player management. Heck, there are enough high school teams that you could build a community-based team model of post grads pretty quickly.
Won’t happen except you might see something in football as a Super Conference with a play-in requirement.
Need to get rid of the single entity format first and let teams operate independently. The NFL structure is going to hold back growth.
… just like it holds back the NFL?
The NFL has no competition because it is a monopoly and no other country in the world likes American football that much.
NFL competes with Basketball, baseball, hockey and even soccer, movies, the beach, etc… The MLS situation is nothing like anywhere else in the world. It is very competitive here for sports fans.
this makes no sense. when talking domestically, the EPL is competing with the EPL. La Liga with La Liga. Bundesliga with Bundesliga. there isn’t even a possibility for another top division to compete with.
the NFL is the only top division football league in the US. so it’s not different. globally, yes, there is no competition outside of the CFL where as those soccer leagues have to compete with each other outside their own borders.
despite that, the NFL is still a richer league than any of the top European soccer leagues. most of that is due to the size of the US and the popularity of the sport here.
even when you look at MLB, NBA, NHL, etc., they are still very successful leagues when compared to other leagues around the world.
point is, the American structure (e.g. NFL) of MLS isn’t holding MLS back. the popularity of the sport and the money available to spend has. and i do agree that single entity is very quickly becoming a hindrance to MLS’ growth.
SBI, looking for a wave of hits & comments? can’t think of better topics than Pro/Rel and the sales/re branding of dysfunctional LA & NY MLS teams! Hopefully a USMNT roster dropping today or tomorrow too!
jk; all good topics — I am for all of the above btw.
Ives did mention in one of his Q&As last week that he needed more clicks. I imagine that’s why we’re seeing more low-hanging fruit articles: simple questions like this, the hour-long Q&As, and the FIFA game ones.
I’ve come here for years (at least six), and the problem is quality. You used to have one really thought provoking article every week or two, surrounded by well written pieces. That was all anchored by a few exclusives.
Today, Ives focuses 95% of his attention on Goal, which is understandable. But no one has stepped up to lead this site with the same leadership point of view or league connections/insights. It also doesn’t help that in the last six years, MLS.com has really raised its content game and the Blazers guys are killing it in the editorial soccer space. So there are more options.
I think the missed opportunities were not cultivating the community more and staying too true to journalism. Ives would always take the middle ground. However, blog readers are looking for commentary so they feed off people with opinions. It’s what differentiates blogs.
But this site is an original and you still get a few solid conversations out of it in a month so I happily return.
I have to agree. even though most readers are not Red Bull Fans, the in depth stories of what was going on in Red Bull was always a nice read.
There is no equivalent to the English Championship in the US. The NASL is more comparable to the Conference (i.e. 4th division). You wouldn’t relegate teams from the Premiership to the Conference. Likewise relegating teams from MLS to ANY second division would only result in teams folding and investors fleeing.
I’m not so sure that’s accurate. The Carolina Railhawks always beat the Galaxy in the US Open Cup. Minnesota United is sending a player to the USMNT friendly, the Cosmos knocked out the Red Bulls. I know those are exceptions to the rule, but the idea of pro/rel is that it separates the wheat from the chaff leading to a natural order, first to last.
I think he is referring the Infrastructure of the both leagues and not the quality of play.
Do you really think that the Railhawks are beating the Galaxy if they are playing games that matter to the Galaxy? Biggest game of the year for the Railhawks. Biggest pain in the a@@ game of the year for the Galaxy’s 2nd team.
No, I don’t, but that’s a hypothetical. I deal in reality, chief.
It’s not just relegation that will ruin a team, promotion can too. The Cleveland City Stars were a successful USL 2 team, finishing as runner up in their first year and winning the league the second year. So when Seattle became an MLS team, the USL promoted Cleveland to the USL 1 because they were so impressed with the club, its management and its performance. However, the larger stadium requirements of USL 1 meant the club had to move to the suburbs and that was the beginning of the end. One or two years later, the club didnt exist. The lower leagues and their teams are, for the most part, too young for pro/rel. They are more of the problem than MLS.
Yes, I remember this. Thank you very much Drew Carey. By investing in Seattle’s MLS plans you helped destroy pro soccer in the city you claim to care about. Could have invested in Cleveland soccer if you love the sport so much
Sooner rather than later. I’m well aware of the economic consequences of relegation, but ultimately we’re going to see more and more ownership groups wanting a piece of the American soccer pie. Pro/rel is one way to accommodate new clubs.
Rather than looking to England, with it’s 100+ years of professional football, I think Japan’s J-League provides an excellent example of an upstart league that began as a single division without pro/rel, but then acquired other divisions and launched J-League 2 to great success. In the mid-90s, J-League was averaging fewer than 10,000 per game; now it’s averaging 17,000+ fans per game, which is just a thousand fewer than MLS. The keys is deeper grassroots connections with the local communities: More local sponsors, more community initiatives, continued local youth development. With that recipe, the number of potential professional soccer markets is virtually limitless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._League_Division_1#Change_of_infrastructure_and_game_formats_.281999.E2.80.932004.29
great comment! and similar in many ways to our situation.
The J-League and MLS are like those social experiments when twin brothers are separated at birth and raised in different environments. Both leagues started in 93 and have had very similar problems and difficulties that they have slowly overcome.
Classic case of nature vs nurture. While MLS has succeeded in commercializing the league and attracting Star Players, Japan has blown the US out of the water with Player Development. Just look at the Japanese Players in Europe vs the Americans as evidence.
For all its criticism, MLS single entity structure and salary cap has been absouluity vital in the survival and growth of the league. So much so, that newer leagues like the A-League and the new Indian Super League are using MLS as a model.
I don’t know if you can single out pro/rel as the reason for better player development. You’d need to look at the underlying development process both at club and NT to really understand how the Japanese have done things.
There’s an interesting story behind the current state of youth development in Japan. I wish I had the link. Long story short, there’s an American guy (former player? former coach? not sure) who expatriated to Japan in the 90s and started teaching kids technical soccer skills (dribbling, juggling, things like that) while also teaching physical conditioning techniques that hadn’t been used widely up until then. Anyway, he’s been credited with developing a lot of the current crop of quality players coming out of Japan..
If they do, which they won’t, but if they do I hope they keep the playoff system and not just the overall best record is winner.
Imagine three different playoffs:
Top two teams in MLS 3 + playoff winner go to MLS 2.
Top two teams in MLS 2 + playoff winner go to MLS 1
Top eight teams in MLS 1 continue tradition of playoffs to determine MLS winner.
Plus all teams would participate in the US Open Cup.
Liga MX structure?
The soccer system in America isn’t anywhere near ready for it but i’d like to see it – wish you had an option which expressed that reasoning
So I voted No – a terrible idea MLS should never consider
I’d say Yes someday but not for a long long time.
I think the most popular sentiment is yes, but not now.
I think the most popular sentiment is the one that finishes first in the poll.
There wasn’t an option that represented a “Yes, but not now” sentiment. Just because something finishes first in a poll doesn’t mean it’s actually the most popular sentiment. It’s just the most popular among the options given.
oooh!! Yummy troll bait!!
Or we can just discuss it like adults.
Yeah, but what are the chances of that? Especially on this particular topic.
Was this blog really necessary? Every blog turns into a pro/rel discussion anyways. On to Cinncinnati
+1
Felger and Mazz had a great mix of Belicheck “singing” On to Cincinatti instead of LL Cool J’s Going back to Cali.
The only way this would work is if MLS started their own 2nd division. Say MLS II or Minor League Soccer. Then they can expand throughout the country and make Relegation possible while spicing up the Open Cup and maybe a League Cup between the two divisions.,
Yep. FWIW: This is how K-League works.
That would begin at the point where the MLS says no more expansion, which after the final of the 24 teams have been chosen, those discussions would begin.
What seems more likely at this point is a system similar to baseball where players get promoted/demoted(relegated) as opposed to teams. How would NASL fit into a pro/rel system since they are technically 2nd division?
Promotion and relegation would solve the problem of where MLS expands too, I just don’t see it happening with MLS charging $100 mil for expansion fees and no owner would agree to a pro/rel system after paying that.
That’s the problem with the MLS mindset. They have a franchise mentality, and understandably so. This is America. But you’re right. As long as people are spending $100 million to enter the top division, there’s no way we’ll see a consensus among owners to implement pro/rel. Of course, all the lower div guys would be chomping at the bit. Capitalism, man.
Yup, I’ve said it before on this site but our sports systems are really socialist in this country. I mean London has 6 Premier League teams (obviously that can change) right now. But Hamilton, ON can’t get an NHL team because it’s too close to Buffalo and they’ll invade their market.
I think it’s more crony capitalism than socialism. There’s a gatekeeper (MLS) that allows certainly entities to thrive while squashing others. It’s a closed, protectionist system. Whatever we call it, it precludes open competition, and that sucks.
certain*
Yeah, true Socialism may not be the correct word, but you get my point.
“chomping at the bit”? Really? Because all of these NASL and USL team owners are dying to have to suddenly build a stadium that meets MLS minimum seating requirements. You people kill me. These owners aren’t dying to suddenly invest $100-200 million for a stadium and at the same time pay for an upgraded squad. A couple maybe. Most of them can’t bankroll an MLS team. “this is America”? Absolutely…something for nothing. Someone else will pay for it because you demand and deserve it. Why would you care about the financial aspect? Not your money.
Haha, calm down.
Blaming franchise fees just doesn’t work. If MLS weren’t charging $100 million for a franchise fee, then ownership groups who want “in” would have to buy an existing franchise…. Forbes estimates the average value of an MLS team at over $90 million, so pick your poison. That is actually how the franchise fee is set– it’s not a number plucked out of the sky.
I’ll say it again…. there is too much money in global soccer for pro-rel to make sustainable sense. The only countries that use it at the top level adopted it decades ago, before TV turned soccer into a multi-billion dollar empire. They simply can’t get rid of it. Nobody adopts it voluntarilly. MLS is the envy of global soccer and has by far the most sustainable future. This is one major reason.
I think MLS should adopt a Pro/Rel structure, however I think we are at leadt 10-20 years away. Must establish a strong team following for the majority of the teams first.
Regardless of how it is worked out, it needs to be done ASAP
I love that advocacy for recklessness comes from a commenter named “Darwin.”
I am assuming your comment is based on the widespread misconception that evolution is teleological. I urge you to read George C. Williams’s classic “Adaptation and Natural Selection”.
I teach evolution. So, poor assumption.
Hmm, I don’t believe you. Which university?
“Hmm, I don’t believe you.”
Hmm, I don’t care.
By the way, ASAP stands for as soon as possible. Nothing in this colloquialism implies reckless abandon. Let me restate my position using the definition of ‘possible’ :
Regardless of the specific mechanism for achieving a pro-rel system, it needs to be done as soon as it can be achieved. We need to turn the upside-down pyramid right-side-up for the sake of developing the game of soccer in the United States.
By the way, I didn’t take issue with your use of “ASAP”—even though that colloquialism, while originating from “as soon as possible,” has come to mean “with haste.”
No, your recklessness was captured most clearly with the words, “Regardless of how it is worked out.” There is no way to carefully implement anything if no regard is taken to how it is done. Your follow-up attempt to clarify your position once again used the word “regardless.”
Thus, regardless of your attempts at clarification, you still advocate recklessness.
Having fun talking to your self?
I’m more in the mindset of: Not right now, but as soon as the league is financially viable to allow it, it should be in place.
Open pyramid with D1 at top. Don’t care if MLS participates or not.
Yep, I concur that this is the way to go…
At some point in the future, yes. Now, probably not workable.
Agreed. It’s easy to forget the league is still relatively young and fragile. I really do think that it will one day be feasible, but it’s at least 10-15 years away.
See I’m torn. I agree, that MLS and America isn’t ready for it. However, the longer we wait, the harder it’s going to be.
I want a pro/rel system because I think for the league and fans it creates the most drama. It also allows for baby teams to “grow up.” My favorite games are the David v. Goliath ones we see in the FA Cup or sometimes in league-play.
But we have to remember that most leagues with that system are 100 years old. It was built into the game and the understanding that a crappy team will get relegated was part of it. Owners knew. Owners were also the local businessman who supported the club because it represented who he was. Owners today do it for money or as a play thing.
I think the J-League is the only recent league that offers pro/rel.
I honestly foresee a future MLS divided into regions with the league encompassing 100 teams, each playing mostly within regional leagues and the top teams from those leagues playing in like a secondary Champions League/mini league. To my understanding, Brazil has something similar.
There’s just too much demand and too much opportunity for soccer to be limited by 30 teams. And if pro/rel is out of the question, regional leagues competing to play in the “top” league is the only logical next step.
If pro/rel doesn’t sink MLS, having 100 teams will…
I call dibs for one of the 100 with BSSC Fall 2014 Yellow squad…
There are something like 5000 teams in the English system — I don’t think 100 is crazy.
absolutely. if it took MLS 20 years to become a semi-legit league with 20 clubs how long will it take to build a second division with enough quality to promote from and relegate to?
I think its a must but its just not reasonable to promote and relegate between the current set-ups of MLS-NASL-USLPRO. institutional changes and a lot of quality expansion at the lower levels is needed.
I think it may happen once the guys who plunked down the $100 million expansion fees recoup their investment. But not now.
Until we get 50+ owners with the capability of 1) owning a 20-50k seat arena (that includes getting it built) & 2) willing to invest $100mil-$1bil & 3) be willing to gamble it moving down and losing 75% of the value, we shouldn’t even be talking about pro/rel.
This doesn’t even take into account tv revenues. Once we have a market for 2nd division viewership, there will be a leg to stand on.
Owners & TV contracts, or it doesn’t happen.
You’re right, though #3 above is really the only one that matters. Simply because investors have had their capital returned, doesn’t mean they’ll be any more likely to want to put their profit machine at risk.
And recouping the franchise fee is a silly standard anyway– what if a team is sold? The new investor would be just ask likely to want to recoup the purchase price (which to them would be the same as the franchise fee– only possibly higher). This doesn’t change the risk tolerance.
+1
Same here. I like the idea, but many our D2 teams and infrastructure would be a drain on MLS if promoted
Agreed.
I can’t agree with this. Pro/Rel will turn American soccer into the repetitive league like the EPL, La Liga Bundesliga etc There usually the same team in it every year, I think MLS needs to explore a system that doesn’t leave anyone out. To me the best idea is to let the league keep growing even if we get to 40 teams, keep the moderate sized with a strong fan base and not bloated like the NFL, every team plays 30 games a season based on a weight schedule and we have a playoff to determine a winner. This way no one is left out.
I think the ‘same teams winning every year’ is not because of Pro/rel but rather the lack of a salary cap. So the biggest spenders win.