Good evening folks. Apologies for the heavy coverage of the Red Bulls perfomance-enhancing drug suspension, but sometimes a story can take over a day.
For those of you a bit tired of that story, you can read my ESPN.com story on the seven teams preparing to battle for the two MLS expansion slots. You will notice that each bidder has a grade with their write-up. Those grades are the values of their bids, according to information I’ve gathered from various sources. It is still clearly subjective, but the grades are not my odds on who will get bids, nor my personal preferences.
There are no such things as perfect bids in this particular process, but you can figure out the stronger candidates from the weaker ones.
Feel free to discuss the story, and the grades, in the comments section below (and for those of you who have been waiting for This Weekend’s Soccer on TV, I will crank that out as soon as I finish my ESPN.com piece on the Red Bull suspensions).
I think it will be Montreal and Portland.
Montreal has it all, Ownership, Stadium (upgradeable), Demographics, fan base and rivalries with TFC.
Portland seems to have the strongest US bid. Solid Ownership, Specific Stadium Plans and excellent demographics, support and rivalry with Seattle.
Ives, well reasoned article. Hard for me to disagree. However, I did feel your St. Louis investor information was a bit off. Why would Cooper bother to submit again if he didn’t have the backing. While he hasn’t released the names, I’d assume he did something with all the time from MLS telling him to get investors until now.
Here’s some additional information on Cooper’s group. No name, but a figure of $500 million.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/4874DCB646EA3D02862574E60013D24B?OpenDocument
Oh, and on top of that chris (Yes, that was you I was directing that to. Yes, the one who posted at 07:16 AM), you’re comparison of Barca to Chivas is absolutely not comparable. Why? Because LA already has another team (Galaxy), which id hope you know divides fanbase, while Miami does not. And sorry to Guadalajara fans, but theres a difference in having chivas and having barcelona backing your franchise.
Glad to see the ignorant faithful still can make it out here to counter my arguement with a 3 sentencer that ive already proved to be irrelevant. Miami has one of the largest hispanic communities in the USA and just because nobody goes to see a football team that hasnt won a ring since the 70’s or a baseball team that does nothing but trade away it’s talent, doesn’t mean tons of people won’t come out to see a fresh new MLS franchise based in the city with a new stadium backed by a billionaire and one of the most prestige clubs in the world. Mind you that this is an untapped market as well, isn’t that the purpose of expansion? To expand your viewing audience? But you all are right, lets just add 5 more teams up north and northwest so the other northern teams and already established viewers have someone to fight with when they get bored. Why don’t we just change the league name to the NASL, seems more fitting to me.
i brought this up earlier, I would be interested in input: what is the requirement for Canadian MLS teams? Are they weighted toward Canadian players? If so, would expansion there be less of a “drain” or a watering down of the pool of talent in the US? If that is so, why not add four teams? Two US (Miami/Portland/St. Louis–perhaps move the Wizards to St. Louis) and two Canadian (Vancouver/Montreal). Perhaps that is what their strategy will be. Of course, the next time around may include the Mets with a NY team, and that will almost certainly flush out other cities.
I am curious, though. With a tinkering around of the foreign players ratio, and an increase in the cap, perhaps we could expand by 6 or 8 cities and not see much of a drop in player talent. Draw in some more SAm/CentAm players where the economy is not as good and the draw to living in the US is high.
Ohh, that brings up another point: what effect will the current economic downturn have on this expansion?
chris(7:16am post), your argument is nothing but an emotion laden rant. It would be stronger if you would back it up with argument and fact. I suppose you come close with your “Chivas” parallel, but go into more detail as to WHY you believe it is a parallel, and why Chivas has failed? Maybe you have a point, but for now, it is obscured.
If it must be two.
1. Montreal (furthest along soccer stadium needs small amount of renos and leads the CCL in points)
2. Miami (SUM partner Barca and FIU stadium looks like a great temp venue)
If it can be four.
3. Vancouver (Building a professional team and organization while they apply for an MLS team not sitting around waiting for one to be given to them – St.Louis)
4. Atlanta or Portland both have intriguing attributes that must be considered for this fourth team.
Great Article! You do a great job of providing insight on strengths/weaknesses of all the bids… and as always I trust your comments probably reflect the MLS insider opinions. One interesting thing to note is that Canadians know that Vancouver really is a stronger market for the MLS fora lot of reasons (which I will list later). So its very interesting to see MLS rank higher from an American perspective. montreal is a very tough pro sports market for a few reasons:
– Montreallers love hockey and only have a passing interest in other sports (witness the departure of the expos and the hot and cold history of CFL teams in montreal)
-local media is french – thus montreal doesn’t help league’s garner national english media coverage in canada
The montreal ownership mightlook strong on the surfacce but the Saputo family has longbeen rumored to be mobbed-up… its interesting that this gets not play in the US media.
Miami is a friggin’ joke. It’s a rotten sports town with fair weather fans that had its MLS franchise contracted. And having FC Barcelona front this bid would create another ChivasUSA disaster and make MLS into a psudo minor league outfit to the eyes of the soccer world. Anyone who thinks this is a great idea needs to be hauled off and lobotomized.
Montreal, Portland, St. Louis, and Vancouver should be the ones given serious consideration. MLS needs to be in places where the game is loved and appreciated, not where Don Garber thinks he can get his grubby little hands on some fake gold. Stay the hell away from Miami, MLS.
Well, heres my perspective. This is copy/pasted from another forum, not to mention that I compiled all of this information and typed it in a matter of an hour, and the fact that half of this is is a pissed off floridian rant that theres no team in the southeast. There is substance to it though.
Okay, after actually doing some homework and whatnot on miami, I can tell you these things.
There is more comparison to the draw at Marlin/Dolphin games and A new Miami MLS franchise than there is to a draw at an old Miami Fusion game and a new Miami MLS Franchise. In fact, there is pretty much no comparison between the fusion and a new miami franchise as far as geography goes. I’m not sure how many of you have actually BEEN to miami. I have, at least twice a year every year of my life if not more (Familia), and Geography-wise, it should have been a crime to even put miami in front of the word fusion. The stadium they played in (Lockhart stadium) is now used as a field for florida atlantic university. Anyone know where FAU is? Boca Raton! for those who don’t know that is a good hour and a half if not longer from inner miami, and 3+ cities away (west palm, hollywood, ft. lauderdale). Of course nobody went to their games, only people that probably did were their 1,000 crazy hooligan fans who posted on their forum every day (Sounds familiar eh?) and i bet half of them were from boca! John said it himself that they had good showings when games were played at the orange bowl. I actually went to lockhart stadium to see the 2006 6A mens soccer state championship for HS when I was a senior in high school. Not only was it far out of the way, but even with the distance the game drew a fairly large crowd.
The new MLS miami franchise bid is much different. The stadium they plan to use until a SSS is built (which they have said they have plans to build when a franchise comes to miami) is FIU Stadium, or “The Cage”, which is only a few minutes away from MIA (Miami International Airport), Miami International Mall, and the Dolphin Mall. Not exactly in the middle of the hood, but believe me when I say MUCH, much closer than lockhart stadium. Now there is the arguement that it wouldn’t be a SSS, and that it’d be near FIU campus and they would have to share it with FIU. However, this is only a temporary venue, and it might also build ties with the college community as well as the inner city fans of miami, as well as the regular sports fanatics in miami. Not to mention that as of now, football is the only sport played by FIU in that stadium. Dolphin stadium is more comparable just because at least it is in miami, although it is on the border of north miami and hollywood, which isn’t exactly ideal positioning. Then again, neither is FIU’s stadium, but neither are even comparable to lockhart stadium and the distance miami natives would have to travel to get there. Also note that “The Cage” is right off the florida turnpike, which is one of the central routes of transportation throughout miami. Not to mention it is right outside opa-locka and hialeah, 2 sub-cities of miami known for their hispanic population.
The other point I wanted to stress was that if Miami is in fact granted expansion in 2011, it’s temporary venue will look like a professional stadium should, as it is currently undergoing a 4 year expansion program on a stadium that is only 13 years old. See for yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIU_Stadium
Now I’m not saying Miami is the frontrunner for one of the expansion slots, we all know it isn’t and with the destruction of the fusion it has many legacy MLS fans throwing up red flags with failure in mind. All I am saying is that Miami didn’t just throw this bid out there for shits and giggles, they actually have somewhat of their act together. Throw in the fact that European Club Stars see miami as a nice place to settle in the states, the support of Barcelona and a billionaire owner, and suddenly it definately isn’t a bid to overlook, especially considering there isn’t a team in the southeast region yet.Oh, and by the way, if I haven’t said it enough, THE SOUTHEAST NEEDS A TEAM. Miami, Atlanta, whoever. We need one.
xander- do your research, itll never happen, we’ve tried. i do believe we discussed this in another thread. little has changed in 3 or so weeks. canada will remain a small part of the mls. a small, well supported, well financed part.
So is the MIami team going to have an air conditioned dome to play in? Already the heat in Dallas gets ridiculous in our MLS summer league.
No Canadian teams. If Canada wants top-flight professional soccer, then let them form their own domestic league. You mean they can’t find 6-7 cities that can have teams, with 2-3 having two clubs? Between Toronto and the three teams in this bid process, there’s four, why can’t Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have two clubs each?
Miami should be a lock, then take your pick of Portland or St. Louis. I’d probably say Portland to help balance out the east-west numbers, but either is okay.
There is a reaspn that they push NE/DC and LA, it is because of the size of the cities.
I am in Seattle and we would love the rivalry, but now one else would care.
It is all going to come down to money.
I would prefer Portland & St Louis, but I think it will be Montreal and Miami.
Growing up playing soccer in the Midwest, it is hard not to root for St. Louis landing a MLS franchise. However, the fanbase in Portland is impressive for the size of its market and the possible influence of Barcelona along with its history of player development would be difficult to pass up. Regardless of who lands the two sides, it is exciting that their is so much interest in the sport domestically. I can only hope the league continues to grow as an entity and as a product.
Joseph D’Hippolito — what do you mean the provincial government “propped up” the Impact? what does that mean? they were partners with the Saputo family to resurrect soccer in the city. And it worked.
How that “overstates” a case for Montreal doesn’t make any sense.
Secondly, Gillett doesn’t own Arsenal — he owns Liverpool. More importantly, he owns the Montreal Canadiens, and has been a fantastic, beloved owner. He resurrected the team from a very low period and now they are the class of the league.
O, forgot a fourth option; MLS goes to a single table. No idea what would happen then.
First, I do believe that it will be 1 CAN and 1 US team.
Ives, I agree with your assessment on Montreal and Vancouver.
With everything that Montreal offer, they look solid, and to me, the closest thing to a guaranteed lock.
If this turns out to be true, this obviously puts Vancouver in a tight spot; there’s no way that the MLS is going to introduce 2 Canadian teams at the same time.
After Montreal, I would have to say that Portland and Miami have the best chances.
I would give the edge to Portland because of their strong fan base and the fact that they’re based in the west.
Either an existing team (Kansas) gets moved to the Western conference or they’ll try to even it up with Portland or the conferences will be unequal.
Out of those three choices, Portland getting the bid seems most likely to me.
It’s just too bad Vancouver doesn’t have their waterfront stadium yet, if they had it, it would be a lock for them to get it coming off a usl win. Judging by the drawings of it, it would be pretty amazing.
Montreal makes alot of sense for all the above reasons. the montreal tfc rivalry would be so heated right away. For balancing sake i think Portland, given it’s west coast, if they get the stadium stuff in order.
One last thing i’d point out is that a TV contract doesn’t just show up because you’re in multiple markets.
You have to get genuine fan interest started and build rapid interst in your product.
As much as i’m not a fan of the sport NASCAR did an excellent job of this. NHL did what MLS is trying to do and failed.
No more subburb teams and low quality bids. Keep the stadiums in the city and go places that are more established first.
LOL, Mike . . . Liverpool! lololololol
What’s with some of the comments above? It seems like some people have been mis-read a few things.
Mtl already has a stadium.
Gillette owns Liverpool not arsenal and he’s only 1/2 the ownership team, maybe less if you consider his proportionate share.
One last point i’ll make is that having a successful USL team has never been a predictor of MLS success. Toronto’s USL team bombed but they have some of the best attandance in the league.
TO KC:
“No offense but I don’t think the rest of the country would care about that rivalry…that rivalry would matter to only 2 cities fans.”
MLS and ESPN push Derby’s like DC-NY, and the Super Classico. The LA Derby has it’s own sponsor in Honda and my friends and I get together just for that game when it comes around. If the games are entertaining and hard fought, then people will take notice.
St. Louis is a joke. They have no stadium, big name investor for MLS to show off, and nearby KC is struggling. If they want a team right now then they should buy KC.
Bring on Miami and Portland. This is a U.S. league so preference should be given to U.S. cities. You can’t ignore Portland’s Timber Army and the Paulsen name with a stadium that only needs to be renovated. MLS also can’t ignore the opportunity to be affiliated with Barelona’s global presence. Miami is the perfect place for retired footballers. This will finally stop the NY fans from thinking they’re getting Henry.
Excellent perspective CD.
ummm, Mr. Joseph D’Hippolito, Gilette owns LIVERPOOL – and the Montreal Canadiens of the NHL.
I think Montreal would be a definite boom for the blogusphere. The TFC fans seem to get really over the top anytime there is a critical piece about their club. If we brought some French Canadians into the mix I think some of these blogs would get real energized.
I do think Montreal and Portland would be nice but at some point the MLS has to have a presence in the Southeast and get a real US television contract to bring in some usable revenue. Big TV money is next huge piece to the puzzle.
I think a lot of people are overstating Montreal’s case. First, the team is being propped up by the provincial government. Second, doesn’t Arsenal have its own debt problems? How can Arsenal ownership support another team across the Atlantic. Third, will Montreal be a marketing strategy for Arsenal as Miami is for Barcelona?
dgfunk write… ” I don’t think the rest of the country understands just how intense a Seattle – Portland MLS rivalry would be.”
No offense but I don’t think the rest of the country would care about that rivalry…that rivalry would matter to only 2 cities fans.
St Louis deserves the team more than any other location mentioned. The area means so much to US Soccer history, it deserves its own team. I’m not from St Louis so I have no bias there either.
To me its St Louis and then Montreal & Miami fighting for the second spot.
As for Barca USA, I have argued against, but now I really don’t care. I think Barcelona is almost a brand name of its own. Like people call tissue “Kleenex” even though “Puffs” makes them. Or “Frigidaire” instead of refrigerator. I would rather not have that name, or ones resembling it, but on the other hand, it ain’t bad. And Barcelona (a team I can’t stand) would want it’s name sake to succeed. I really don’t rip on Real Salt Lake, either. So what that it really means “royalty”. Geesh. chill!
Ives, I would have liked more info on the stadium status for Miami: FIU, then . . . ?
That being said, anybody who starts “Miami failed . . .” really doesn’t know the Miami situation. It goes beyond just saying the fans had to drive to Lockhart Stadium in Ft. Lauderdale. I am sure that is part of the struggle, but even with that, by their last year, they averaged about 11.5K per game. The team made it to the semi-finals. Their coach was a media darling, always being quoted on NBC6 and others. Their owner pulled out. Why? I don’t know. Every reason to believe the team would have experienced more financial and fan success, including another shot at the Cup.
No way you can argue with Barca getting Miami. That almost alone puts them in B+ range. I would like to hear more about the stadium, though.
Montreal intrigues me, but only because of its potential for instant local success. Strong rivalry with Toronto, and stadium income. My guess is they will get the nod over Portland. But I think the MLS could possibly wait and use them to expand in the next round. What are the rules for their makeup of nationalities? Do they need more Canadians?
As for St. Louis, do they really have that strong an ownership group? I heard rumblings about the lead guy arguing about the franchise fee. Is that correct? If so, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Miami and Montreal be the picks.
Good article, but I’m interested in the actual stadium plans with their location, etc. I don’t have time to look through each of the investment group’s portfolios hah
Too bad we can’t have them all. I see positives in each potential location.
Enjoyed the article Ives, although Montreal and Portland wouldn’t be “building stadiums from sratch”. From what I can see, St. Louis is turning out to be a sham. Cooper won’t name his other investors? Does he even have other investors? And I thought St. Louis was a done deal. And for RedJim, how do you come to the conclusion Miami will be successful? Is it because of how well they did the last time a MLS team was there?
Nice read. The Mia. Herald had a great front pg. article yesterday by the dynamic Michelle Kaufmann, quoting the ever delightful Ray Hudson, believe me he will convince the doubters too! Ives is there any way you would be kind enough to copy all my passionate Miami Fusion oriented posts and send it to the powers that be? In return I will host you when you come visit, and get you scoops that only I can with the players, coaches, and mgt. Thats a story for another day, lol! Thanks Ives!
Last thing an American soccer league needs is the Garber’s old NFL butt buddy’s jerking their strings …
The way you describe it, Montreal seems nearly a lock.
The companion article would be speculation on movement. What are the odds that Cooper can persuade KC’s owners to join forces and move cross state or sell to his group? Where will Chivas go? (San Diego?)
Another well-written article. I also do not think that Miami can be ignored with Barcelona in the mix. Yes, it will be hot- but I don’t remember too many unexciting games this season in Houston- but I do for many of the northern cities.
If the Montreal bid can lead to a Canadian TV contract, they would be a no-brainer. For all the corporate-hate that some fans have, this would help to further the financial basis of this 13 year-old league.
When soccer is more firmly implanted, then taking a chance on places like Atlanta, Raleigh, and others will make more sense.
Ives,
I agree and disagree. I do not see how we can bash the city of Ottawa as a simple reason why MLS can’t handle the area when we have RSL, which might I add turned out to be a success (not to mention Columbus [and I don’t want to hear population #’s only pop density]).
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think Ottawa deserves a team in this line-up or the next, but I do think they have the market for what makes sports good, small diehard fanbases. And with no MLB and NBA team, they have an open-niched market. Both good ownership AND ambitious stadium plan…something that impresses me and almost every other bid doesn’t have.
If they do Miami, they better do it right! I mean, shouldn’t NYC have a MUCH better fanbase than LA, TFC or DC, but we don’t. Why? It was and still isn’t being process right. No Red-Bull-New York-esqe “Barca Miami!”
Like you said, Vancouver is in a weird position. They are competing with two niches – Pacific NW and Canada and seem to be losing in both. But if…and i mean if…they can get that downtown stadium…what a glorious identity the Whitecaps will have in Vancouver. The MLS will need WFC!
Like most, Montreal, Portland, and St. Louis are my favorites. However, my major criticisms:
Portland – The conversion of PGE better be ambitious…NO MORE CRAPPY 1/2 STADIUMS! I thought that was a requirement.
Montreal – Again, I would love to see $$$ put into the stadium expansion…I mean a lot of $$$ so it has an identity, not a college soccer field.
St. Louis – Everyone talks about the great history that it has…but NYC had the history as well. Does STL still have that history???
My vote:
1)Montreal
2)Portland
3)St. Louis
4)Vancouver slides in if Montreal or Portland fail.
Good article.
Montreal is the easy pick. After that, it’s pretty tough as you point out. I would prefer to see St. Louis so we can build more momentum in the central US. If the St. Louis franchise can grab a fan base like the St. Louis Cardinals have, you could have a great fan base in about 7 different states.
The Miami bid scares me. I really don’t like the idea of an outside club using an MLS club to establish their brand a la Chivas USA. We need to build our own unique American brand. Based soley on attendance, Chivas USA looks to be a failure thus far.
there is no way in hell that the mls says no to barcelona. not only that, its the largest market, by far in the us (i dont know how it stacks up against montreal, though). as for the other team, i say montreal by a nose over portland… portland has the best fans but that doesn’t mean that montreal fans aren’t good fans as well. also, montreal is a much larger market, and the stadium situation is better. portland will get theirs one day, though.
Great article ives, basically how i see it too with some extra points i hadnt thought of.
AMT- Good question, the next question would be why would you want a management and team that isnt willing to wait another couple of years if they didnt get in the first round, that suggests perhaps they arent as serious as people think they are. That being said it really is a chase between Miami and Portland IF Montreal is certain, godwilling
Ives, if I had one complaint it’s that your right so often that it’s impossible to argue with your articles.
Can’t say i would have ranked those teams any differently.
Enjoyed the article. I was waiting for an article with more objectivity instead of the opinionated pieces.
I’d be very interested to find the detail of exactly what these bids entail.
Please God, no Miami or St. Louis in this. As a Seattle resident, gotta say the prospect of either Vancouver or Portland getting in, but I think for the sake of MLS we need Portland in the league. I don’t think the rest of the country understands just how intense a Seattle – Portland MLS rivalry would be.
Ives, do you think the Barca appeal could mean we actually see two US expansions, Portland and Miami, instead of another Canadian team? I know conventional wisdom suggests that one Canada team will be in this bid, but as long as TFC keeps setting the standard for fan support, do they really need a local rival? Just look what their road trip to Columbus early in the season did for the Columbus support.
I’ll cast my vote with Montreal and St. Louis. Montreal for all the reasons Ives described. And St. Louis because it has a great soccer fan base and would generate an instant rivalry against the Chicago and Kansas City teams.
Miami and Atlanta have some appeal because they are very large media markets and there are no MLS teams in the southeast. On the other hand, the summer heat in Miami and Atlanta would be brutal from June through September, which makes for unexciting soccer.
Miami for the ownership group (I heard that Marcelo Claure is a team owner in Bolivia, is that correct). It will be successful there and who doesn’t like the idea of going to Miami in the early and late season of MLS.
Montreal for the natural fit for a TFC rivalry, another strong ownership group and another great cosmopolitan city.
These two additions would bring the MLS to the 4 corners of North America.
Ives, can’t one of these ownership groups buy KC and move it?
Ives:
Good article. Just one question: did I read that paragraph on Vancouver right? A 59,000 seat stadium for a USL team?
I really want to see Montreal and Portland, but my question is whether the Don will be able to say no to Barca, who might not come back in a couple years.
I think we’ll see Montreal and Miami this time around, with NYC and Portland by 2012.
Ives,
I agree. I think MLS will go with one Canadian and one American team. Montreal is clearly in the front for a variety of reasons(stadium,fanbase,possible Canadian tv contract). The American bid seems completely up for grabs as each city faces soma tough obstacles ahead. No clue who would be in front here. In conclusion, I say it will be Montreal and Miami. Barca’s weight and FIU stadium put them over the top.